Firewire Target but....
 

Firewire Target easier, but....

The Suppostion that the new Systems do not Ship with regular ATA all seems incorrect to me...

The Super drive in those systems are Standard ATA and thus there has to be at least one ATA connector on the motherboard and you certainly could always slave a second device.... And in fact see below.

*Ultra DMA ATA/100 bus: supports internal optical drive
-------------------------------------------------------
http://developer.apple.com/documenta...PowerMacG5.pdf
(PAGE 23).
------------------------------------------------------------
I was disapointed that there is only room in the case for a total of two 3.5 Drives and one 5.25 inch Drive. I am sure its goof for Air flow..... It means internally you could stripe one pair for speed or reliabilty and thats it.

Most of Apple recent cases had room for 4 to 5 3.5 inch Drives.

I guess people privliged enough to have a G5 will be buying even more firewire enclsures or perhaps multidrive enclusures.

Perhaps Apple will get into the act with a little mini me Xserve raid. I could see a lot of people needing 2 to 5 drives in a single case to raid for speed or reliabilty

Further down in the Dev. Doc a new clearer Description Firewire Target Mode G5 desc
 

Target Disk Mode

The user has the option at boot time to put the computer into a mode of operation
called Target Disk Mode (TDM). When the Power Mac G5 computer is in Target
Disk Mode and connected to another Macintosh computer by a FireWire cable, the
Power Mac G5 computer operates like a FireWire mass storage device with the
SBP-2 (Serial Bus Protocol) standard. Target Disk Mode has two primary uses:

high-speed data transfer between computers
diagnosis and repair of a corrupted internal hard drive

The Power Mac G5 computer can operate in Target Disk Mode as long as the other
computer has a 1394a or 1394b FireWire port and either any version of Mac OS X or
Mac OS 9 with FireWire software version 2.3.3 or later.

*************************************************
To put the Power Mac G5 computer into Target Disk Mode, restart the computer
and hold down the T key until the FireWire icon appears on the display. Then
connect a FireWire cable from the Power Mac G5 to the other computer. When the
other computer completes the FireWire connection, a hard disk icon appears on its
desktop.

If you disconnect the FireWire cable or turn off the Power Mac G5 computer while
in Target Disk Mode, an alert appears on the other computer.

To take the Power Mac G5 out of Target Disk Mode, drag the hard disk icon on the
other computer to the trash, then press the power button on the Power Mac G5
computer.

The optical drive is on a standard ATA/100 connector, but running a cable to connect a hard drive would probably be difficult. This would possibly be the case with using a PCI ATA card, due to the "cooling zones" in the G5. Also, most SATA to ATA drive adapters are fairly large, and I don't think they would fit inside the drive area in the G5.

Actually If I read the Diagram correctly
 

Actually If I read the Diagram correctly (a dubious assumption:)

****And firewire Target mode really is the way to Go***********

The Optical Drive is Close to Top of the case and so are the two 3.5 inch Drive bays almost direcly opposite, so it should not be too hard to borrow the Super Drives Cable or Run a new one brielfy that had two connectors.

Drive space
 

I don't see a problem with the limited space for only two hard drives and one optical. half a terabyte is a lot of space for now and in a couple of years you will probably be able to replace them with larger drives. And with Fire Wire 800 drives, expandability isn't an issue. I already have an external 52x cdr, so that is all I will need along with the (slow) super drive:)

It is a great System...... But.. I am sure it was a design Compromise for Cooling
 

It is a great System...... But.. I am sure it was a design Compromise for Cooling

I just wish the System was a few inches taller to support at least 4 3.5 inch Drives. A drive itself is only 1 Inch Tall, 3 more would easily fit in 2 Inches of Height with an inch of clearence. A tray of Drives in the Bottom or Top.
----------------------------

It is not the 1/2 a Terabyte that is @ issue. Nor is it the fact that you can buy Firewire Cases that Hold Single or Multiple Drives. Even ekk a SCCI/Firewire Raid or Firewire Raid holding 4 to 8 drives and up.

---------------------------
**********In the Older cases you could Raid just the Drives inside the case many people bought inexpensive 2 and 4 channel raid cards. They then raided the drives the way they wanted.

Some People made a raid pair for Redundancy for the OS and for Data, mirroring, while others made the same with a second pair for Data. Others raided for straight speed with 2 to 5 drives [You need to use 4 to 5 for for Video Editing Broadcast Quaility or better].

Others went for for a Sub $100 dollar ata133 controller and used Carbon Copy Cloner with a pair of drives (replcing ata66 and 100 controlers on the MB).

The point here is the Drives cost little and so did the ATA and or Raid Cards. Thus after spending $1500 to $4500 on a desktop they could build in a lot drive speed, capacity, or reduncacy or even a combination of these for as a little as few hunderd dollars and usually much less then $800 dollars.

And all this lived happily inside*******

Now the choice is simple, but more expensive an Apple Mini Me Xserve Raid (if they decide to make one) or the many third party SCCI/Firewire Raid or Firewire Raid holding 4 to 8 drives and up.

Most Of these Options start @$600 to 800 for simple two drive affairs and Climb into the thousounds pretty quickly. You have to spend thousounds to reclaim the speed or reliabilty you could have had with internal **Real Hardware Raid**
----------------------------------------

Apple is re-visting the issue already with the Xserve. This is why they have not replaced the Xserve in the same time frame. The Xserve came with 4 drives too before requiring an external Xserve Raid.

Apple is trying or more likely Aready figured out how to Smash all that good sruff into 1U by 19inch by 30 or so inches of a server Rack.
Maybe they will have to make it 1.5, 2 or 3U high.

Re: Firewire Target but....
 

no, actually, I"ve verified that with a call to apple and checking the G5 specs. The hard drive connectors are made for ATA serial drives ONLY.

besides, we're getting a little far afield now from actual useful hints or tips for purchasers into a discussion of the merits of the G5 itself, etc. Consider this a gentle suggestion that we stay on topic in this thread and if need be start a separate thread in the coat room if you want to have just a general discussion about G5s.

I'm hoping for this to be a primer for those who wish to purchase so they can get their ducks in a row and be set to go with a minimum of hassle. If I have to relocate this thread to the coat room at some point, I'll restart another tip thread here with the salient info included.

Sure Color me Confused
 

Sure, Color me confused though:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Ultra DMA ATA/100 bus: supports internal optical drive
-------------------------------------------------------
http://developer.apple.com/document.../PowerMacG5.pdf
(PAGE 23).

The above is Standard ata and in the G5 for the Super, and that in a Pinch if you wanted to you could borrow its ata Cable for a data transfer I realize that the 3.5 inch Drive/s run off Serial ATA the one Apple provides and the second one you can put in.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On the matter of Topic on and Off.

It is true that pining for extra drives is somewhat irrelvant if you have already ordered... But Some people might take pause and wait. Probably not, but people have a right to know a systems limitations and strengths.

The PCI slots in the G5 do not support older cards which are 5v only; it requires those which are either 3.3v or 3.3/5v universal switching.

This is causing some folks with specialized cards trouble, there is a thread at MacInTouch discussing this issue.

Caveat: verify that your cards are of the universal or 3.3v variety.


Edit: Corrected per anthlover below.

Intereresting no 5V
 

RE: Intereresting no 5V:

I just read the URL/note and think you have it flipped: See Below:

"Current shipping Macs support PCI 2.1. This includes cards that support both 3.3v and 5v switching, and both 32 and 64 bit cards. What isn't always clear in this description is that the current G4s do not support cards that are 3.3v ONLY, only boards that support BOTH 3.3v and 5v OR only 5v. More specifically, there are three types of boards:

5 v only. These boards have a long connector that abuts the rear-end of the computer, followed by a key (a narrow break in the connector to fit over a break in the slot), followed by a shorter connector. These boards won't run in the G5 (but do work fine in current G4s).

3.3v only. These boards are the reverse of the 5v board: they have a short connector at the rear of the computer, a key, and then a longer connector. These boards should run in the G5 (and these boards would not run in a current G4).
So-called universal board that supports both 3.3v and 5v. This board has two key openings, one near the rear of the board for the 3.3v key and another farther away for the 5v key. These boards should run in the G5 (and would run in a current G4). "

A little more detail for those interested..
 

Conventional PCI 2.3
An Evolution of the Conventional PCI Specification

Revision 2.3 is an evolutionary change to the PCI Local Bus Specification. Revision 2.3 makes a significant step in migrating the PCI bus from the original 5.0 volt signaling to a 3.3 volt signaling bus. Revision 2.3 supports the 5V and 3.3V keyed system board connectors (as did revision 2.2) but revision 2.3 supports only the 3.3V and Universal keyed add-in cards. The 5V keyed add-in card is not supported in revision 2.3. PCI 66, PCI-X, Mini PCI, and Low Profile PCI support only 3.3 volt signaling on 3.3V keyed system board connectors and 3.3V and Universal keyed add-in cards.

High performance technologies power the logic within the chips with 3.3 or lower voltages. The newer high performance technologies cannot support 5 volt compatible signaling on the off-chip drivers. As a result, the host bridge needs to migrate to 3.3 volt signaling with 3.3V keyed system board connectors. Removing support for 5V keyed add-in cards is the first step in the migration to 3.3 volt signaling systems and ensures revision 2.3 compliant add-in cards will be usable in 3.3V keyed system board connectors.

In addition to the changes described above, revision 2.3 also incorporates other ECNs and approved errata. Compliance to Revision 2.3 will be required no later than January 1st, 2004.

Re: Intereresting no 5V
 

Quite right! I've fixed it now. Thanks!

Must be the prolonged heat wave melting my brain... :D

NP:)
 

NP:)

As a side note to this topic...

Admin should Probably make PCI Voltage and key issue a sticky Top level thread or we might have people trying real hard to jam cards into wonderful new and old machines. Might even save breakage of MBs.

Magic Eight Ball says: "Good idea."

But being lazy I'm just going to make this thread sticky for a while, and maybe we'll get new reports of gotcha's on the G5's as well.

:)
 

:)

A few things to note about the G5
 

Well we got a G5 about a week and a half ago from apple. We are using it now for demoing purposes to presell them on our sales side of the company. So naturally I took it back to the shop and took it apart and put it back together again.

One thing I noticed is the mesh front panel has no filter or screen to catch dirt, dust, hair, bugs, etc. Which would not be a problem if you lived in a sterile enviroment. Which I bet all of us do. Also there is a plastic air shield, which is transparent and right behind the side panel of the case. This helps air flow of the system. We all know its not how many case fans are in your system, its how air flows through it. You don't want any hot air to resignate so constant air flow is good. I have thought about maybe putting a real light filter or screen across the front of the G5 to catch the dust, hair, etc. Now over a period of time dust can build a static electric charge, and thats not good for a system. It can also ruin your fans, build up on your heatsink and for lack of a better term, insulate it, making your processor warmer.

It does come with 10.2.7, I did not find any major differences in the OS, so its probably just optimized for the newer hardware.

One thing I will note is that its not as heavy as it looks. Its actually a bit lighter than the MDD G4's.

The smart fans were fun to play with. If you remove the air shield in the slightest way you can immediately hear the fans spin faster. The sensor are pretty percise. One thing I will note is make sure that air shield is installed properly and seated along the side of your case properly. If not it will result in your G5 running slower. The processor clocks itself down to prevent overheating.

I did not read that you have to put RAM modules in as pairs, but the low end G5 ( I guess you can call it low end?) does have 2 sticks of RAM in it from the factory. That kind of made me curious if apple was gonna go that way.

You do.:)

Yeah but I think its like do you want
 

Yeah, but I think its like do you want to take Full Advantage of Memory Bandwidth, instead of, you have to or No Boot.

If what I am saying is true their will eventually paired and non-paired bench marks plus lore of greater reliabilty in pairs.

Our G5 has been running for almost 2 weeks straight now and it has had no problems. This is one the first production models as well. Apple sent it to us early to demo it. We are now this week getting them in steadily but unfortunately we are selling them before we can even put any of the big ones on display to demo. Plus I don't work on the sales side, but I know for a fact if there was the slightest problem with our demo G5 the sales reps would come right to me to fix it, so they could sell more.

Additional DIMMs must be installed in pairs of the same size.

—Power Mac G5 Developer Note

'Course, just because that's what they SAY... ;)