App Store Issue: how to reinstall app previously downloaded?
 

I thought that buying Photoshop Elements thru the app store, I'd get a file enabling me to re-install if I need to in future.

Apple person keeps repeating like a parrot that I can download it again, repeating over and over, not grasping that I don't WANT to go through the 2-hour-plus download process again.

the only thing she's offering me is email to the iTunes store to "request" that I not be charged if I stop the download.

She says that I can make a copy of the installed application and drag that back in but no guarantees that would be a proper install!!

thanks a bunch, apple!

Can anyone here shed light on this incredibly customer un-friendly situation?

a

As far as I've heard, apps currently aren't allowed to install anything outside of the /Applications folder. So you should be fine making a copy of the application and reinstalling that copy.

If you're not happy with this sales path, why not cancel and buy the boxed version?

there is no way to cancel it. there is no button or thing I can click to cancel, and the Apple person said "you can't cancel it."


I assumed this was like Lion, where you get a thing that you can burn to disc, but she said this app (Photoshop elements) doesn't download an installer.

it just installs itself, then disappears, so if you even need to RE-install it (and on planet earth, that is a real likelihood) you have to re-download it!

this is skeezy beyond words.

How microsoft of them!

a

Just make a .dmg of the app bundle. Then you can re-copy that to your Applications folder anytime you want. Just like loads of other apps outside the Store.

benwiggy;

it isn't clear that that would actually work. Yes, I could make a .dmg of the app bundle after it's installed, but it isn't clear that THAT would allow me to re-install the software to the same level of functionality as a regular install.

my experience with Adobe apps is that you can't simply copy the app folder and slap it on another computer and have it work. It'll throw out warnings, like "Can't find so and so. Reinstall the application from the installation disks."

I assumed that downloading Elements would be like Lion, in that what you get is an installer, which can then be backed up to DVD.

Not the case with PS Elements, and it's slimey that it's that way and that they don't tell you before hand.

It's also dumb from a software distribution standpoint, because it virtually guarantees more download traffic, because there WILL be a time when you will need to re-install your software.

why put the burden on the customer who's already paid for their license to suffer another 3-hour download?

a

1) 99% of customers will never need to reinstall the app

2) Having a simple, transparent installation (with no left-over installer to dispose of, or be confused about) is better for 99% of consumers

3) If something goes wrong with the app (e.g. it gets corrupted), in 99% of the cases, it will be easier to just restore the app from backup instead of reinstalling.

I have no clue where you're getting your figures, but you certainly do paint a picture of some users out there.

In my experience, all of the software I've downloaded — with this exception — have provided either an installer, or are simply drag to the applications folder types.

And adobe itself, actual developer and seller of Photoshop Elements, gives you an installer when you download directly from them.

apparently, adobe feels that people deserve the option to re-install at some future time.

Perhaps their data shows that 99% of people will find it superior to have that installer?

I could be wrong....wouldn't be the first time.

cheers!

a

How much of this software was downloaded from the Mac App Store?
The point is that the Mac App Store is not merely another repository of software - it is trying to change the user experience for obtaining software to make it as simple as it is on the iPhone/iPad.

Until around 1912, you needed to get outside your car and hand-crank the engine to start it. One might imagine the complaints back then: "What if the battery dies - how am I supposed to start my car?". Sure batteries do die, but 99% of people prefer having battery-operated starter motors.

Apps from the app store ONLY install an app bundle to the Applications folder.
Any "support" files will be created or copied to other locations if they are absent.

Have you actually installed PSE from the App Store?

You seem to think that saving the app WON'T work. Have you actually tested this hypothesis from apps from the App Store?

Hayne;

with all due respect, I'm just not down with your 1912 analogy.

I do agree that apple is trying to change the software distribution experience, and to my experience, they mostly got it right.

Where I part company is with the assumption that most people don't want the practical security which comes from having an installer which they can use to quickly an conveniently re-install their applications, if need be.

While apple is re-defining this and that, and while apple makes a great computer and a great OS, this is still planet earth, and things still do go wrong.

we haven't managed to abstract ourselves beyond the constraints of physics and the vagaries of software-governed machines.

I haven't, am not, and will not engage your argument of what 99% of people out there may or may not do.

One thing that 100% of people using computers DO want: they want their kit to work.

You and I differ on how they may want to achieve that, or whether and what their Plan B is for when it doesn't work.

cheers!

a

You're right. I don't think that saving the app will provide a satisfactory re-installation scenario.

However I'd be more than willing to let you spend 2 hours and $87.50 to find out, then report back to the board!


:D

a

With all due respect, I don't think you have a very good notion of what "most people" want. I think most people want to not have to think about how it (anything) works - to just have it work by "magic" - as long as the magic works most of the time.

And to make up some more (plausible) numbers to make it quantitative:
One million consumers.
Scenario A: (an installer is supplied)
99% will waste one minute wondering about the installer, what to do with it, etc.
Scenario B: (no installer is supplied)
1% will need to re-download the app (cost: 60 minutes)

Scenario A:
1000000 x 0.99 * 1 = 990000 minutes = 16500 hours

Scenario B:
1000000 x 0.01 * 60 = 600000 minutes = 10000 hours
--------------------------------------------------------------
Scenario B wins !

I can express it in math, too:


Reinstall application from .dmg file: total time: 20 mins, max

Re-download application from app store: total time 2 hrs 20 minutes. (depending on connection)

result: 20 minutes wins!

How about this math:

Option 1:

1) Install the application from the App Store - 2 hours 20 minutes for you (5 min for most).

2) Make a copy and save it somewhere - 1 minute. As benwiggy said, the App Store only puts stuff into the Applications folder. If an app requires files to be installed elsewhere it will create and place those files there the first time it runs.

Option 2:

Bitch in a public forum about something you haven't even tried, and when people explain how it works, dismiss their comments without listening - 3 hours.

I suggest you try option 1. :)

Frankly, chabig, you are way out of line with that language. You should be ashamed of yourself popping off like that.

You disagree with me? Fine. I can live with that.

But apparently you need to forget yourself in a public forum as you say, and use not your better mind, not your understanding, but your annoyance, and your inappropriate language skills.

If you have an internet connection that can pull down a 2-gig file in 5 minutes, good for you. Most of us do not.


This subject has been beaten to death. We agree to disagree, but at the same time let's be civil.

Yes?


a

Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill, and let's not exaggerate.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/913089/PS%20Elements.jpg

Yes. Let's.

chabig: I want you to stop now. I do not come here to be attacked. I do not come here to wrangle. I don't need you to add your last word in to somehow vent your hostility.

I consider you now to be harassing me and I want you to stop now.

I am not going to debate this with you. Please conserve our bandwidth and let it go in favor of those with constructive information.

a

But -
from your first post - Apple seems to think that the Adobe download is not an installer....
Why do you choose not to accept that?
Likely the download is just an app whose purpose is to copy/install the Adobe app to your applications folder, as others have intimated, and you would be perfectly all right in saving that initial download for possible future use.
Is this a reasonable conclusion?

Delta;

that is your conclusion about what apple thinks about what adobe thinks.

I have only downloaded 1 thing from the app store: Lion.

Lion appears as an installation file, which you can burn to DVD, as widely published on the web. I had a reasonable expectation that PS Elements would also download as an installer.

If I had known prior to clicking the download button that I would not receive an installer file, letting me conveniently re-install in future I would not have clicked the "download" button.

I do not know with certainty that simply making a copy of the app folder, after it's installed, will give me a backup copy...one where all I have to do is drag it into my Applications folder, and I will have the same, full-function install as the first one.

All software I have downloaded, up until this one, has either arrived as an installer file, in a .dmg file, or has been a simple, drag to the apps folder type thing.

I have never successfully done that with other Adobe apps I have.

Right now, I'm feeling I stomped on a nerve. Lots of ppl here appear to love the new software distribution model, and see no need for installer files.

More power to you. I got nothin else on this. Tomorrow, I'll probably select a vendor, and get myself a conventional, old-fashioned, fuddy-duddy DVD-borne copy of Adobe Photoshop elements 9.

It'll get delivered by a non-warp drive, internal combustion-powered vehicle driven by a member of h. sapiens, and I'll *gasp* walk to the door and receive the package!

Then I'll crank up the ol' Victrola and rock out to some peppy John Phillips Sousa Tunes, while I sip some (but not too much) sarsaparilla.

a

Ok, let's stop with the (slightly) uncivil discussion.
It seems silly to discuss a hypothetical problem.
(No one seems to have actually tested if there is any issue with restoring a downloaded app (e.g. the one from Adobe) from a backup copy.)

Hayne: you are right. we don't know.

However, the price for me to learn was 90 bucks, and I wasn't willing to go there.

that's my bottom line. sorry.

a

May be ask at the Adobe forums, or their customer support?

that is a dang good idea

Here's followup to benwiggy's excellent question:

I called Adobe, got a very helpful person from India. After some initial language problems I was able to get the question understood:

Does Apple's download provide a re-usable .dmg file AND will I be provided with a serial number for the software?

Adobe response: "We can not vouch for what Apple's download is, but they should provide you with a .dmg file AND a serial number."

Should being the keyword here; apple personnel told me that A) you don't get a .dmg file. The download automatically opens, installs, then disappears, and B) told me that Apple has no way of knowing what the nature of the Adobe download is, don't know if you get a serial number, you have to contact Adobe.

If a user has a problem with software gotten from a 3rd party, Adobe has that user take it up with that vendor.

Also, Apple's download gives only the Elements 9 application; Adobe's also gives "Organizer," a counterpart to the Bridge app found in CS. Hence, Adobe's download is 2 gigs; Apple's 1 gig.

I'm done experimenting and asking questions.

The new software distribution model Apple is using needs a bit of improvement. It needs to provide users with 1. better information upfront, 2. .dmg files, and 3. serial numbers.

Some may feel that the world has moved on from the need for installer files, yet from my inquiries, this is not the case.

Steve Jobs wants people to feel that DVDs and installer files are SO 2010, and passe.

I posit that the the Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field is operating at 100%, and that in reality, most people actually do need and derive benefit from media, installer files and serial numbers.

Nothing against jobs, apple or the mac. they're all great. I simply haven't drunk the kool-aid. :-)

Now..time for me to buy that serial number, and have some more of that sarsaparilla.

cheers!

a

That seems to just show that Adobe has a left-hand, right-hand problem. Clearly someone at Adobe knows what is happening with the version of Adobe Elements being offered via the Mac App Store - their developers created that version.


You don't seem to get it yet.
There are two versions of Adobe Elements, one available via the Mac App Store, one via more usual channels. These two versions have different capabilities (as you have found out) - but the most important point here is that these two versions are delivered using two different models of software distribution.
There is no need for a serial number with the Mac App Store version since the Mac App Store mechanisms take care of what used to be called "copy protection".

Consumers have a choice (and you've made your choice clear):
- buy the software via traditional channels and get the traditional experience
- buy the software via the Mac App Store, which is more convenient for most consumers, and often significantly cheaper than the traditional version.

The statistics that I've seen (from developers who have talked about their experiences with the Mac App Store) seem to show that consumers strongly prefer the experience (including price) of buying via the Mac App Store - many developers see hugely increased sales of their products.

you have made your position clear.

if you say that you have statistics showing that most people prefer the app store model, then bob's your uncle.

shall we agree that we have expressed every corner of this issue to the limits of the known universe?

I do agree with you that somebody at Adobe knows the answer to the question, however getting through to such persons isn't quick or easy. perhaps email would do it, or chat, but many of these folks are in India, and the language barrier is an issue.

Now then...time for a fresh, tall glass of sarsaparilla.

a

Not with any Adobe applications, but I have done it with at least one other application. I use QuickCursor, a little application that sits in the menu bar and enables using many text editors in place of wherever the user is currently entering text. Thankfully, the application can be accessed with a keyboard shortcut, so I did what I often do with menu extras: I replaced the necessary resource files with a blank image file because I find menu bar icons distracting.

Well, the developer released an update at one point that made it such that doing this broke the application. Users were told in the support forums that there was no plan to accommodate a no-icon feature. I found all this out after installing the update. Simply restoring the earlier version from a Time Machine backup worked fine.

The only thing an application acquired through the Mac App Store installs that's necessary for using it is the application itself, always installed within /Applications. All other files are created when an application launches, like preferences, application support stuff, etc., and as of now Apple requires they be placed appropriately within the user's home folder. And based on the tighter security features in Lion, detailed on this page of John Siracusa's review, there's no reason to expect any loosening of these restrictions when acquiring applications through the Mac App Store. So, here's the one-sentence summary: Yes, a copy of an application is all that is needed to reinstall it.

And here's the latest example of what constitutes using computers for most people: 90% of people don't know about the Find function to search for text in a document or web page.

If this is true of all app store downloads, cool.

What about a software serial number?

Adobe has an upgrade path from PS Elements to Photoshop CS5, but I'm going to venture that they'd require a serial number from your copy of Elements to establish your legitimacy as an upgrade candidate.

a

Think of your Apple ID as the serial number.

so, when I'm ready to get that upgrade, I just flash adobe my apple ID and 200 bucks, and Adobe gives me the PS serial number, right?


a

Correct, all App Store applications work this way in terms of only needing the application and your iTunes ID. And there are no serial numbers, as ganbustein just noted. All applications you buy through the Mac or iOS App Store are tied to your iTunes ID. Drop your iPhone or laptop in a lake, and you can always reacquire apps for free using your iTunes ID.

As for the Photoshop upgrade, I can only speculate on how that works. My guess is that Adobe provides an upgrade path within the Mac App Store version of Elements, so

1. They assume the Mac App Store version is purchased legitimately;
2. The upgrade to Photoshop takes place outside of the Mac App Store system, so
   • Photoshop is acquired through an online purchasing mechanism operated by Adobe, and
   • the version of Photoshop includes some serial number or other registration mechanism.

ok..so, simply backing up the application(s)' folders inside of your user/Application folder is backup enough. In other words, if your drive gets hosed and you have to reformat and re-install all of your app store-downloaded apps, all you need do is drag your copies of those apps' folders back in and yer good to go?

In a situation like that you'd lose any user-configured settings that were in ~/Library/Preferences, but you'd be fine in terms of being able to use the application.

To go back to the the up-thread discussion of backing up the Lion installer, that's the exception to how things operate with the Mac App Store. Yes, they may partly be because Apple can do things differently for itself, but just as much because it's the one "app" available from the App Store which isn't an app.

As Adobe has always had a large number of upgrade options, you'd need to ask Adobe about that.
http://www.adobe.com/products/photos...splayTab3.html
Looks like more than $200 to upgrade ($600 in your example) ...

And while it may be annoying to re-download a massive file like Elements, purchasing any application through the Mac App Store comes with the added security of being able to reacquire applications after catastrophic losses (fire, theft, etc.) which lead to computer loss and backup loss, especially since most folks don't maintain off-site backups. So the process of having an installer file we used to download and run, and maybe some people saved, has been transformed into

• a single application we don't have to back up,
• can be re-installed from a backup using drag and drop,
• if needed, can be reacquired with an iTunes ID, and
• can be installed on as many machines as are connected to the iTunes ID.

I'd say that's a load of improvements for most folks.

Obviously, this doesn't protect users' files, but that appears to be one area iCloud is designed to address.

I appreciate you and DeltaMac weighing in on this...it is looking better to me as a software distribution model.

a

I know this is pretty out of date, but note that Apple does now, apparently, allow re-download on Lion and later versions of the App Store. It does seem that one cannot do it on the 10.6.8 version but am still looking.

You have always been able to re-download (for free) anything you've purchased in the App Store. This was, in fact, one of the major selling points of the App Store: anything you bought there was automatically licensed for up to 5 Macs and could be re-downloaded at any time to any of them, for free.

For most purchases, just go to the Purchased pane in the App Store app. Almost everything you've purchased is listed right there, and the free re-download is just a button click away.

The "almost" in that statement is because things you've purchased can be marked "hidden". You generally do that if you've bought something, tried it out, and decided you don't like it. Marking it hidden prevents the App Store from nagging you about unwanted updates.

But you can see and unhide those items. In the App Store app, choose Store→View My Account (your account here). After logging in, look under the misleadingly named "iTunes in the Cloud" section, and click the "Manage" link following "Hidden Purchases". Anything you unhide from that screen will now show up under "Purchases" so you can download it again.

Whenever your purchase only downloads an installer (for example, when purchasing an OS), the installer itself is automatically hidden in the App Store (and removed from your computer if it's still in /Application) after it runs. This is how you unhide and re-download an installer.

Wow, thank you for the reply!

The app in question is, in fact, visible under purchases and marked 'Installed'. Holding the option key when clicking 'Purchases' does not change the 'Installed' button from being grayed out as on-line documentation suggests it should.

I DO have a backup copy of the app in question, so have re-installed it that way; however, the developer had asked me to re-install it from the App Store and I could not (and still cannot) find a way to do so in my version of the App Store on 10.6.8 even after deleting the app and all of it's files in the various Library folders the store insists it is already installed and gives me no apparent way to download it again.

This is not urgent because the actual problem for the app was unrelated to having to re-download it, fortunately.

If the app is still present in your Applications folder, drag it to the trash, then empty the trash. Then, the App Store will show the app icon as "Download", or "Install" (not sure which)

Thanks for your reply. That is what I did, and it still shows as installed. Just did it again with the same result. Clicked on Purchased with and without option key. Same result.

Restart your Mac, and check in the App Store again.

Do you possibly have a backup connected to your Mac, and the same app is on that backup? The app store may find other copies, and call it installed, even though on another drive or other partition. Unmount and disconnect all external storage, and the app should show properly.

If that all doesn't help, maybe it's a problem with the particular app that you have…
Can you tell us which app?

Ah, good. Don't know for sure which thing did it. I deleted the app. Emptied trash (as I had done before). Rebooted mac. Unmounted the time machine and another disk where I had archived the app. At that point App Store allowed me to "Install". Oddly, remounting the other drives still allowed me to Install. Restoring the app made App Store recognize it as installed again. So, not sure if unmounting or rebooting or both was the trick, but now I know how if I need to do it again.

Thanks!

Unmounting the (non-Time Machine) drive where you had a copy was probably the crucial step. I tried it with a small app on my 10.6.8 machine, and found it worked while my Time Machine volume was still mounted and the original copy was still in my non-emptied trash.

The App Store app (and now Software Update) looks for existing copies using Spotlight. It apparently weeds out anything it finds in trash or TM, but I know from experience that it will update copies on other volumes if it doesn't find one on your boot volume.

Once you get the "Install" button enabled, clicking it re-installs the app, but the button does not change appearance to reflect that until you go to another pane and come back. I had to keep a Finder window open on /Applications to satisfy myself that it really was reinstalling the app.

Amen. I have to agree. Downloading from the App Store is a huge pain. That is a huge reason that I've only purchased one app from the app store.

I am so happy that a good number of developers are either choosing to offer non-App-Store versions alongside their App-Store apps, or fore the App Store entirely.