Can I trace sent email to recipient?
 

Hi- Hope I'm in right section to ask this question?

I have a problem (but not with my Mac)- I sent a v important email to 2 people at the same organisation 5 days ago, with Bcc to me and a saved copy in my web mail ''Sent' file but they are pretending they did not receive it. Believe me- I have good reason not to trust them.

I accessed the web via Safari on my home Mac 0SX: Tiger: 10-4-11: PPC G5. Safari: 4.0.4 (4531.21.10)- but I sent the email from the web/remote access for my home Mail account. Just gone onto b-band and not finished adjusting all my settings so at mo I can receive mail to my home mail/POP3 account but I can't send emails yet- that's why I logged onto the web remote access for my mail account to send. Hope this is clear?

So- is there a way I can trace the email that I sent from my web/mail account to the 2 recipients addresses and check that they (theoretically) should have received it? I do not understand how they can deny knowledge of the email while I have my Bcc copy and there's the copy in my web mail sent file. Any comments- advice- encouragement v much appreciated.

No.

However, non-delivery of email should have resulted in you receiving a bounce message from their mail server (or an intervening server.)

i.e. if you've sent the email, and received no warnings about difficulties in delivering the message, you should assume it was delivered.

Note in some cases, if your email is viewed as spam by the mail server, it might not respond.

A BCC copy and a record in your sent folder are rather meaningless - the former means that the path back to your account worked and the latter means your own mail client is set up to do that.

No bounce means that the recipient's MX server accepted the message but does not guarantee delivery. Some servers just dump bad addresses.

A common and effective spammer's technique is to include an image in the message, and host the image on a webserver (not as an attachment). If the webserver's logs indicate that the image was downloaded it's reasonable proof that someone opened the message. NOT downloading the image is NOT proof they didn't open the message, as mail programs can be easily set to not load graphics.

You don't even have to include a real graphic, all you are looking for is the download attempt. Of course the filename should be unique.

If it's really, really important they get the message, the Process Server knocking on their door is still highly effective (and acceptable in court). Uniformed, armed Federal Marshalls are even more effective, especially if they bring the assault team with them. Helicopters are usually overkill though.

Edit: You're in London, so that would be the county Bailiff with or without the SAS or similar special forces group. Helicopter is still a bit much.

If by "same organization" you mean the same company that you are also a part of, then go talk to your friendly neighborhood mail system administrator. They can check the mail server logs and see a great deal about what went where.

Trevor

Hi bramley-
I've sent emails to the recipients addresses for 2years and there are 2email addresses I use to send to them and to receive email (depending on my location) and I've never had any warning or notification of non delivery and I did not in this instance.
I have had 'out of office' responses from them recently when I needed them to respond- although the dates indicate they have not gone yet or should already be back at the office- but that is because they just don't reply if it serves their purpose. As a test I've sent the same message from the same web email to friends and they have all received it and I have checked on my email web server/account- no service problems at the time of sending (wouldn't that have shown up when I sent it or at least since then?). So my gut says they got it (but can I prove it?)
Ta for responding to me.
Helen

Hi acme.mail.order
So the fact I got my Bcc/sent copies doesn't prove that they got their emails. I understand what you are saying.
However, I don't have a bad address to be dumped. Like I wrote to bramley, they definitely know who I am as we have communicated (if you can call it that) over 2 years and the email they got before the email in question was only sent the night before and that definitely got there as this was the email they used to 'reply' to me stating they had not had an email/response from me.

I don't understand what I would need to do to include an image in the message, and host the image on a webserver (not as an attachment). Is this a task capable (quickly) for a novice to learn/perform because I have no idea beyond ordinary practical sense.
What is the "Process Server"- can you explain as I've probably missed something?
Believe me- I'd be up for the Helicopters because they could at least get me out of here.
Thanks Acme

Hi Trevor.
Sorry- I meant that the 2 recipients of my email were at the same organisation but I am not employed with them.
I have had numerous email communications with them previously from my same email addresses (and from them to me). I have made serious complaints against the organisation and so under these circumstances, my access to the relevant mail system administrator will not be possible and it is really more likely that pigs will fly down Holloway Road before I get a straight answer from them (Oink!- there goes another one).

I appreciate all the advice/imput given to my question despite me not being able to do what I wanted to do. Ta. Helen.

A process server is someone (a real person) who delivers legal documents, and makes physical assurance that the document, such as a court summons is delivered literally into their hands.

Helen: from what you've described in #5 it is 99.9% likely that the people involved have received your message. But we can't prove it and we can't make them read it.

Maybe time to visit the local solicitors?

Thanks DeltaMac and acme.
I'm 99.9% sure it was part of their delaying strategy as they have already delayed enough so that many of the issues are outside the statute limitations (ie. I have no legal recourse).
The rest I've been told I would have to take a private civil action- which I cannot afford to do. My complaint is with the local Ombudsman but it is taking sooo long that it is clearly benefiting the other side. It's like being a character in Bleak House- 'Jarndyce vs Jarndyce' anyone?
I just had a fleeting Mac fantasy that with tech know-how I could show them up for the liars that they are. Helen

There's always the Court of Public Opinion - gather everything together and post it somewhere public. Make sure the local newspapers find out.

Sorry, the email protocol was developed in the early, trusting days of the internet. While other early protocols like telnet have been largely replaced by newer, secure protocols like ssh, we are still stuck with the early email system. With the current email protocol, we can't even always prove where an email originated* (like a spammer versus your good friend), much less if it has arrived at it's destination. This is not a Mac or Windows issue, this is a universal issue with the email protocol.

Trevor


* Although we can get pretty close on many emails

Thanks acme. and trevor.
Re a Court of Public Opinion- I just wish I knew a journalist as s/he would have a very big story to run with if they knew the truth behind the situation. But meanwhile I have to just carry on regardless- and where are those helicopters when you need them? H.

Pick up a phone and call one. And you misunderstand what the helicopter is for - it's not to remove you, it's to deliver the Men in Black to the roof so the office in question gets raided from the front door, the back door, and through the windows simultaneously. Usually excessive for a compalint letter.

Perhaps a horse's head instead?

Hi acme.
It's not as simple as that as there are issues re confidentiality and counter accusations- I've got to to try and source the answers (on a legal forum) before I decide what's best to do. Me with no lawyer- vs them - many lawyers- is not an even playing field.
in terms of the stress factor, I'd still prefer a swift exit as far away as possible (with no harm to animals). Helen

I'm assuming that the legal jurisdiction here is English Law on the basis of your stated location.

In the civil court, the burden of proof is not as absolute as it would be in a criminal case. The court will pass judgement even if the evidence is a little hazy.

Furthermore, under English Law, it is not necessary for the sender to prove a recipient of a notice read it - only that an attempt to deliver the notice was made. i.e. if I send a letter recorded delivery to someone working for (or representing) an organisation, it is only necessary to show that the letter arrived in the organisation's mailroom, not that it was delivered to the recipient or read by them.

By extension, it should only be necessary to prove that an email was delivered to the recipient's email server. Whether the email was classified as junk, accidentally deleted, should not be a valid defence. The fact you received no feedback to indicate what happened to the email should be taken by the court to mean successful delivery as this is in accordance with established practise.

W3C documentation says that not notifying the sender of a problem should only be acceptable where the message is clearly junk. But if there has been previous email communication between the sender and recipient without problems then I won't like to try to defend myself by stating that particular message was classified as junk!

None of the above will apply where there is a contractual condition in force banning the use of email to deliver notices, or otherwise specifying how notices are to be delivered.

In short, I'd spend less time worrying what route the email took to get to the recipient, and more time on getting the best proof you can that you sent the email.

Have you thought of speaking to your ISP? If it is a UK registered one the guberment has required records be kept for 1 year since March of emails so they can be used in criminal prosecutions. I do not know if you can gain access to such a record of yourself, but maybe the Ombudsman can. But if it is possible, you need to get on with it.

Finally, I'm not a legal person - just done a couple of contractual courses. So don't take the above as gospel.

Have you tried the old-fashioned way of sending them a notarised copy by registered mail?

Hi bramley
Well they still haven't responded to the last 2 emails I sent and they have not responded to another complainant's emails either so I'm sure they got them- they're just using more delaying tactics.
I contacted the ISP and although they say they respond within 24hrs - they haven't. I don't hold out hope there as I don't spend enough money with them- it's probably not worth their time/effort.
Thanks for your law notes/observations though. Helen

Hi warragul
They specifically asked me to send an email to them for when they got back to their office a couple of hours later- a registered letter was not possible. Helen

Hi bramley

I did get a response from my ISP they said:
"I can confirm that when the email is moved to the Sent Items, it has left our
servers and has been received by the recipients mail server - what their mail
server does with it from that point onwards is indeterminate"

I sent a 'test-email' with the most recent docs and I have recieved no bounce-back as message undelivered (and of course no response still from them) so it is also possible that although the emails have been sent from my email account server- that the dodgy recipients have just now marked my particular mail account as spam (and they know it is my main/home computer account).

I think I have enough evidence to show that I did act in good faith and sent the email - as requested- so I now it's a matter of getting them to respond- somehow?
Helen.

Hello. This is just to support what bramley said earlier.

As part of my day job I have to deal with taking people to court for non criminal cases. We were always sending the summons' out via Recorded Delivery (I am in the UK). We had a training session with a barrister who ran the local magistrates courts (Clerk of the Court) and he told us that if something was sent through ordinary post it was deemed to have been received, despite anything being said by the other party.

I hope this helps and am fascinated to know the story behind this thread. Best wishes.