PowerMac 9600 upgrade?
 

Okay, so I have a PowerMacintosh 9600/200 with 64 MB of RAM. I want to install OS 10.1 on it or 10.3 using xPostFacto. (I have 9.2 on it using OS9 Helper.). For Panther, I need a G3 upgrade and RAM. For Puma, I need only RAM. Is there anywhere I can RAM for my PowerMac? I think Puma (10.1) is the better option, performance wise for this machine? Can I install 10.1 without RAM upgrade? (For those who don't know what the 9600 is, it's the Mac the looks like the 8600, and the beige G3 minitower.

There is little point in installing 10.1. It was still pretty much a 'work in progress'. 10.2 is the first real, complete versions of OS X, and even then you will find few apps now that can run on it.

IIRC, the point of xpostfacto is to get OS X to install on machines that don't meet the minimum spec. So, you may want to investigate whether 10.3 will work without further CPU upgrade using this method.

As much as I admire your dedication, (having customised all sorts of beige boxes myself), I suspect that for the money you will spend on CPU upgrades, RAM, and other things (PCI USB/FW cards; 100T network card?), you might just as well get a MacMini.

What do intend to use this computer for? Another option is to find another OS to run on it, like a PPC Linux or BSD port. Then you could use the 9600 as some sort of server - mail, web, etc.

I too have a few of the PM 86-9600 series computer laying around..
As Benwiggy stated spend your money on a macmini.

Thank you for the quick replies... mainly it would be a fun project (I'll only put 10.1...as buying a Mac mini would be a better choice than upgrading and installing 10.3. Anyway, I don't have a 10.2 disc, and 10.1 is all right for now. (My MBP has 10.5 for newer apps anyway.) ;) I'll probably not add PCI cards and stuff...

You wouldn't even have to go so far as a mac mini, you can pick up a dual g4 for virtually nothing these days and that will far out perform the 9600 and, at the same time, you don't have to do anything special to get tiger on them, and maybe even leopard, depending on the speed of the G4.

That said, I can totally understand your desire to give an old computer something to do, i get it, but I just have a hard time spending anything on such old machines. If you want to go down a road of learning some apple history, maybe you could get a set of OS X Server disks to install on it, and I mean the original Server, the one with the gears on the cover of the box and the CDs.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1418/...9ed9220cbc.jpg

jeffo

All of the above are entirely correct re the $ vs performance on an old machine like this.
However , I went through this conundrum about three years ago and had a lot of fun hot-rodding my 9600/300 to a G4/400 running Jaguar.
It took a reasonable amount of time and a bit of cash too but I learned a lot in the process not only hardware wise but regards to software too.
I whacked an IDE PCI card in and a couple of 80Gb hard drives bought secondhand and cheaply and now it is a media backup server for my other machines.
It still runs rock solid , is relatively quiet and works well for what I want it to.

All the parts you should buy secondhand and will be cheap compared to what they were when they first came out.
These are roughly what I paid.

IDE PCI - $25
USB2.0 card - $10
hard drives - $15 ea = $30
Sonnet G4/400 - $40
Ram ( already had 640mb installed )
Total - just over $100 maybe more , maybe less - it depends what you want to buy and where.

eBay , Craigslist and LEMSwap are you friends.

Have fun !

Stewie

I would have (still would) like(ed) to install Mac OS X on a machine that wouldn't support it, while having the Classic environment. I'll still keep the G4 idea in mind though.

Where would I be able to get a set of Mac OS X Server discs that had the Platinum interface now? And besides, the Classic environment there would be very much like the SheepShaver environment. If I find any discs, however, I'd give it a try... but I'm also looking forward to trying out the Aqua theme on my Mac. I've read that OS 10.1 would install on a beige PowerMac G3 with just 64 MBs of RAM. My PowerMac 9600 has 64 MBs of RAM. Is there a way to run 10.1 without RAM upgrade, as I already have the 10.1 disc.

It should install OK but will run dog slow with only 64mb Ram.

Stewie

That's what I thought, but xPostFacto says it needs at least 96 MB. I thought maybe I'd give it a try with 64 MB until I get 128 MB. Also, I read that a person installed 10.1 on a 9600 with just 64 MB. I would like to know if there is a way to do so, so that I don't need to look for RAM first.

I'd seriously recommend putting OpenBSD or NetBSD on it.
http://www.openbsd.org/
http://www.netbsd.org/

Your Mac is supported; it's the same BSD underpinnings as OS X; it's good for hobbyists; your Mac will be able to do some useful work for you, and be reasonably compatible with the outside world.

Never mind, I just found out.
Also, it's a bit hard for me to compile things with Linux and Unix, say I was installing Linux PPC on this Mac. Should I open a new thread to talk about compiling Linux and Unix programs or can it be here?

Performance-wise, in the first few iterations of OS X, Apple kept optimizing performance to the point that every version that came out was FASTER ON THE SAME HARDWARE than the versions that came before it.

There is no Mac that can run 10.0 faster than it could run 10.1

There is no Mac that can run 10.1 faster than it could run 10.2

There is no Mac that can run 10.2 faster than it could run 10.3 even if you have to use XPostFacto to put 10.3 on it.

With 10.4 it becomes arguable. Some would say any Mac that you can shoehorn 10.4 onto and get it to boot, even with XPostFacto, is going to be faster under 10.4 than under 10.3; others would say there are some hardware configurations that run faster under 10.3. I have a PowerBook of the "WallStreet" era, which due to some poorly designed element in the open firmware and/or the ATA internal bus can't boot OS X unless it is installed to a partition of 8 gigs or less and that partition in the first 8 gigs of the drive as a whole. Some would say that doesn't leave you enough room for scratch files even after you strip the OS down to bare bones. Me, I haven't gotten around to trying it. (PS: some folks install Tiger on an external SCSI drive for machines of that vintage. SCSI support is a bit wonky in OSX but there are always tradeoffs).

Only with 10.5 is there finally a clear sense of "Oh, your hardware is too OLD for this operating system, it would bring your pathetic ancient Mac to its knees" as opposed to "Apple didn't feel like providing the drivers for your antique Mac so you need XPostFacto". Leopard is a bloated performance-sapping beastie, with bells and whistles that make it inappropriate for slower processors. Part of Snow Leopard is putting some life & responsiveness back into Leopard; people with computers that can boot either are reporting a snappier performance with Snow Leopard.

Back to your 9600: forget 10.1, seriously; it's a sludgy slow frustrating OS and your 9600 would be faster in 10.2 or 10.3 on the very same hardware.

You really really really need RAM in that thing. You can put a gig and a half in there. A 64 MB Mac is appropriate for System 7.6, but not OS X. Think 512 or 640. You ever try to run VirtualPC? Well, trying to run MacOS X in 64 MB of RAM is going to feel like running Windows 2000 Server in Virtual PC. It's going to perform like a school bus powered with a Volkswagen bug's engine.

Too true AH3.

128mb Ram modules for these beige era Macs can be had for $10 -$15 a stick on ebay.
I know what I'd be buying first.

Stewie

I thought of installing 1.5 gigs, but then, it seemed not very worth it. Maybe installing somewhere from 128 MB to 512 MB, and a G3 upgrade with Panther would be good?

I have had mine for quite a while now, but i got mine on ebay. They might be getting harder and harder to find now though.

If you decide to go this route, check out posts on this forum by RacerX, and his website www.rhapsodyos.org.

For Panther I would put in at least 512mb.
I have 768mb I think from memory in mine and if I upgraded to Panther would leave it the same.
To Tiger and I'd be tempted to put in a bit more.
And depending on which version of server you are looking to install on this machine, that may have a bearing on whether you need a G3 or G4 CPU upgrade.
Look at the system requirements needed for the server OS.

Stewie

All righty, is there another online store I could also buy things from? eBay doesn't have RAM etc.? ;)

There are various sources for Mac hardware. Processors and such are available from MacSales (click any add here in MacOSXHints...). RAM can be had from many sources. My favorites include Crucial and 1-800-4Memory.

Nice websites, I'll look in them.
Thanks.

I am looking for OS 10.2. Would that be better than installing 10.3 and looking for CPU cards?

10.3 knocks 10.2 out of the water. At least on my G4 server, it did.

Is there a really big difference? I mean, should I get a G3 or G4 upgrade card?

Thanks :D

10.3 plus a G4 upgrade card compared to stock 604e running 10.2?

Like comparing an M80 firecracker to ten tons of TNT.

OSX was optimized to make full use of the AltiVec extensions. I once had a WallStreet PowerBook with a G3 500 MHz upgrade card, and then later had an otherwise identical WallStreet with a G4 500 MHz upgrade card. Being of that vintage, it could boot OS 9 (or 8.x for that matter) natively; under OS 9, I didn't notice much performance diff, but the G4 took that OS X to its heart and did things with it that the G3 of identical speed could never touch.

And yes, 10.3 is noticeably snappier than 10.2 on the same hardware.

Thanks, so the search for RAM and upgrade cards is on!



PS is the any USB cards available for it? I couldn't find any.
PPS my internal HD is about 4 GB, and my external HD is about 6 GB (you know, the old types, that require a huge port on the back. It has a power button and a power cable. The device sounds like the PowerMac itself), would OS X run on the external HD?, or does it need the internal one. Does XPostFacto allow installing on external HDs?

That would be an external SCSI hard drive. Yes, some folks using XPostFacto have had good luck booting from those. Ideally you should get one a bit larger than 6 gigs. But 6 is enough for Panther (10.3) if it's mostly empty otherwise.

www.ramdirect.com has 128mb sticks of Ram compatible with G3/G4 upgrades for $10 each.
Four of those babies for $40 plus shipping and you'd have 512mb+

Sonnet have a "Tango" Firewire plus USB2.0 PCI card and they pop up on ebay every now and then.
Just be aware though that USB2.0 can only be used with OS10.2.6 plus.
OS9 will only let you use the card at USB1 speeds whereas the Firewire ports can be used from OS8.6 and up.
Belkin and Macsense also make USB2.0 PCI cards for Macs.
Also be aware that you may run into sleep issues by installing a USB card.

Stewie

Thanks man, also, what is the difference between "EDO" RAM cards and "FPM" RAM cards?



It is mostly empty. I only have Office 2001, some other small program, and a backup of my OS 9.1, and 9.2 System Folders.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3063
and...
http://www.oempcworld.com/support/Ma..._Explained.htm
give a rundown on the two and whether you can use the two together ( you can as long as they are Mac compatible esp the right voltage - see the second link)
The memory supplier should be able to give you the right sort anyway.

I should have pointed out also with the USB2.0 cards - a Mac only USB2.0 PCI card will usually cost quite a bit more but there are a number of PC only cards that work just as well for a lot less.
To get optimal results from a USB 2.0 PCI card to run in a Mac, get a card that has the NEC chipset. Via and Ali chipsets are problematic - mostly sleep related issues, and should be avoided.
Some USB 2.0 cards that have the NEC chipset are:

Adaptec 3100LP
BAFO BF-460
Belkin F5U220
GWC UC-160
IOGear GIC250U
IOGear GIC251U
Keyspan U2PCI-5
O'toLink U2-C2B
O'toLink U2-C2A
O'toLink U2-P20N
O'toLink U2-P50
Ratoc PCIU5
USBWholesale UII-PCIP

Stewie

Do these cards have Firewire?

I don't think any of them do.
I've used the Belkin and Keyspan but they are both USB2.0 ports only.
I'd look at getting a separate firewire card.
Buying a cheap card like one of the above and then a no-names firewire card is probably cheaper than buying a FW + USB2.0 card, something like the Sonnet Tango.

Stewie

I had a PM 8500 and used external 9GB SCSI drives with XPostFacto 3 with 896 MB of RAM. I partitioned the drives so I had 1 GB for OS 9.1 and 8 GB OS 10.3.9 and 10.2.8. I had 2 internal drives the original 1.2 GB for OS 7.6.1 and a 18 GB with OS 9.2.2 with OS 9 Helper both with the old HFS file system. The externals drives use the HFS+ file system for OS X . I used this machine for over 10 years and gave it to a friend who is using it today.
Join the XPostFacto Forum for more help.

Accordingly

That totally rocks... to be able to natively boot 7.6.1 and then reboot into 10.3.9!

That's quite some range :)

With XPostFacto 3, I boot from OS 9.1 where it resides as a Control Panel on a partition with OS X to either OS 10.2x or 10.3x. On the OS X partition is another copy of XPostFacto 3. Also on the machine you can force a boot into OS 9.x by holding down the option key during the boot.

Ivan

On my WallStreet PowerBook, once having installed 10.3 I did not have to touch XPostFacto ever again; to boot back into MacOS 9 (actually 9.0.x or 9.2 or 8.6 or 8.1) I would do a shutdown then a power-reset and boot. To change back to 10.3 I would open the Startup Disk Control Panel and simply select MacOS X 10.3 and boot from it.

Cool, I'm going to see what is the lowest OS on my PM 9600

I'm wondering, what is the latest CRT display that would work on my Power Mac? Also, What is the PC Compatibility Card for Mac, and if I want it, how can I use it? Could I dual boot with Windows and Mac like with OS 9 and OS X using xPost Facto?

The PC compatibility card was essentially an entire PC motherboard which would use your Mac's peripheral devices and ports. Might have its own RAM or might swipe some memory from the MacOS, don't know. It would probably give you a 266 MHz PC or something in that neighborhood.

You might get better performance (at least by some measures) running VirtualPC, once you've got that G4 upgrade in there.

Alright. Anyway, what is the latest LCD display I can use with my Mac, I accidentally typed CRT.

That will depend on the graphics card you have or are going to put in the 9600.
Look at the max rez that the video card puts out then look at the LCD you want to buy and see if they are compatible.

Stewie

Does changing the graphics card change the port on the computer? I mean, only the 2 CRT Macintosh displays that I have, connect to that Power Mac, the Qudra, and the 3 PowerBooks. nothing else, not even my MBP. (It doesn't even use VGA. It is something like a BIG VGA cable. So new displays don't work.

Sometimes , but it depends on the videocard.
Some have one VGA , others two. Then the newer ones have one VGA and one DVI.
Some of the Apple only cards have one VGA and one ADC for the Cinema Displays.
But you also have to match the resolution of the videocard to your monitors.

Stewie

That would be the old DB-15 Mac monitor port. Macs didn't have VGA for a long time, you needed an adapter. They're still available if you look for them.

http://www.computercablestore.com/Ma...er_PID945.aspx
http://www.computercablestore.com/im...-H15FD15M6.jpg

Great, thanks.

Would QEMU work faster than VirtualPC? It runs on PPC and it is free.

Dunno, never tried it.

I'd visit their forums and post that question there.
I'm sure you would get a few replies from someone who has experimented with both.

Stewie

On Sonnet's website (the guys who make G3 and G4 upgrades), the only PCI cards for USB and FireWire are for Power Macintosh G4, Power Macintosh G5, and Mac Pro. Nothing for older Macs (at least not for 9600). I want at least USB, preferably USB 2.0. Currently, file transfers are either made by Floppy Disks, and by Internet. Meaning, File Sharing. I can only get the Power Mac appear on my computer, but I can't get my MacBook Pro to show up on the Power Mac.

PS are there any USB PCI cards that are compatible with Power Mac 9600?


EDIT: Also, I want to buy a Maxtor 40 GB HD from OWC http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Maxtor/2F040L07/, and how do I partition it? I want one partition for OS 9, and another for OS X (it's best if OS X has the first partition). Also, before taking out my old HD (4 GB), I want to clone it to put it on my future HD. How do I do that. Also note, that I won't be able to reach my Power Macintosh in the next few weeks. I will still have my MacBook Pro. Thanks.

Is this the card?http://www.sonnettech.com/product/tango_2.html

From memory on mine I actually installed separate FW and USB2.0 cards.
Just a bit easier to troubleshoot problems.
In saying that though, the Tango does seem to have less deep sleep and other problems than some other cards.
Despite their G3 and G4 only listing , they are also regularly used on older Macs as well.
I also found that an internal zip drive was pretty handy for file transfers between my 9600 and any of my G4s ( up to 250mb anyway ).
If you run both your computers through a router and connect obviously via ethernet with both configured properly then file transfer should be a breeze.

Stewie

So you reckon it'll work?
Also, would an AirPort card work with the computer?
I also have iMovie 2 for OS 9. Would it work?

Yes
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1621
Dunno about an airport card but here is a good list of wireless cards to look at
http://lowendmac.com/macdan/md09/mac-wifi-desktop.htm
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA44463?viewlocale=en_US
The built-in FW port may be the stumbling block although I have never used iMovie 2.

Stewie

So how do I clone my current OS 9 system and get it onto the new hard drive? And how do I partition it in OS 9?

Cloning OS 9 is as simpy as dragging your System Folder to the new volume. And Disk Tools will let you partition a new drive. (Assuming it doesn't choke on a drive far larger than what it was expecting to deal with).

If OS 9 Disk Tools is dismayed at the notion of a 40 gig drive, you can partition it on a different computer, under OS X. (Be sure to install MacOS 9 drivers; it should be an option in the OS X Disk Utility)

As far as I can tell, this install Mac OS 9 Drivers is unavailable Leopard and Snow Leopard for Intel, but available for Tiger, and available for Leopard and lower on PPC Macs.

Yeah that sounds about right.

So how do I fix that if I get the problem?

If you don't have an OS X PPC machine, you'd need the help of someone who does, I guess.

Although you could probably partition it under OS X but not format the partitions, then see if OS 9 will let you format the partitions when you attach it.

Has anyone tried OS X Server on a Pre-G3 Machine?

Why don't you buy a retail copy of OS9 ?
Probably $10 on ebay

I do have an OS 9 disc, so why by a new one? It's just that I don't want to reinstall the System.