Looks like the end of the iFree line... [Archive]

griffman

01-03-2003, 04:04 PM

See this article (http://news.com.com/2100-1040-979129.html?tag=fd_top) on news.com.

It's a tad surprising, given the troubles attracting people to the platform anyway ... now their one edge (free really cool apps) only lasts until the next major upgrade of your bundled iApps.

If it's just iDVD, that's not such a big deal, because it's never been available as a free download, and I paid for the iDVD2 upgrade. But if it includes iPhoto and iMovie, there's gonna be a lot of pissed off users!

I'd pay for iMovie, and I'm pretty sure I'd pay for iPhoto, but I know I'd just keep using iTunes3 barring some amazingly compelling feature that I can't even imagine yet. I just use it to listen to music...

-rob.

AKcrab

01-03-2003, 04:43 PM

I *think* their source is thinksecret...
Take it for what you will, but I will believe it on the 7th.
Wasn't the last iMovie update $20? I think the same for iDVD?
I would assume that all new computers would ship with the iApps included, so this will only matter to all of us long time users. ;)

vickishome

01-03-2003, 06:34 PM

I have iDVD2, but I know I didn't pay for it. I had to have downloaded it for free or maybe it came bundled with my Mac or something. I don't even own a DVD player so there's no way I would have bought it. I have no use for it.

I'd do the same with iTunes. Use what I have and forget about the upgrades unless they came up with something too cool to pass up.

I'd gladly pay for iMovie. That is one nice little app. My daughter was doing a project for school in which they had to make an anti-drinking commercial. The kids taped everything, and then I offered them my Mac and iMovie for editing. I sat the kids down and gave them a whopping 2-3 minute introduction. These are 12-13 year old kids who barely touch computers, and have never worked on a Mac. They didn't even know video editing existed! Next thing I knew, those kids came up with one heck of a great movie with all kinds of cool features! They even figured out how to do things I didn't know about! Of course, the kids at school loved their project and they got a full 100 on it. You just can't beat an app that is so easy to use a group of kids like that can produce something without any prior experience whatsoever, and yet, it has enough features to produce something you can really use. I think iMovie is an excellent app.

griffman

01-03-2003, 06:43 PM

Yea, iDVD came with new machines. They've always charged for iDVD and iMovie upgrades; the question appears to be will that now include iTunes and iPhoto?

Cool iMovie story about the kids! It is truly an easy-to-use program. My wife and I put together a 10-minute video for her bosses, who are celebrating their 30th wedding anniversary -- they loved it! We had still photos, live action, music, voiceovers, titles, etc. The whole thing took maybe 10 hours from start to finish, including the video shooting time.

-rob.

vickishome

01-03-2003, 07:17 PM

The kids really surprised me with what they came up with. Excellent splicing. Great transitions. Music in the background playing softly while the talking continued (just like in the movies!). They learned how to split the voice up in order to remove extra noises they didn't want in the movie while still keeping in what they did want. They moved all kinds of things around like you wouldn't believe. MTV has competition. ;)

Then at the end of their movie just before the rolling credits, they decided to create a "bloopers" trailer. I'm telling you, they had me rolling in the isle! The figured out how to do slow motion. How to make something repeat 3 times. And how to make stuff go backwards. They added laughter and sound effects. These kids were really going at it. And they did it all in just a few hours!!

No experience. No clue. No idea. Just a few imaginative kids, a Mac and iMovie. That's how computers should be. :)

When they were done, I couldn't help but think that it would have made for an excellent Macintosh commercial. :cool:

The kids' parents all came in, and, of course, the kids insisted the parents watch their movie on my Mac (full screen, natch). The parents were rightfully impressed. I have a feeling I sold a few families on getting their first Macs that night. Apple would have been proud. :D

Craig R. Arko

01-03-2003, 08:41 PM

Well, it could be worse; they could spin them off and call them Claris. Then most of these apps could be dead after a few years of neglect. :rolleyes:

Phil St. Romain

01-04-2003, 10:26 AM

(Something I posted about this in another forum.)

I've often thought that Apple should make its iApps available for Windows, for a nominal fee, of course, leaving them free for Mac users. That would be a stronger incentive to purchase a Mac.

I'll wait to see what's actually in the wings, but I already know that the iApps I have do everything I need and much more, so I doubt I'd pay anything for upgrades unless they offer very significantly cool features. Then, I'd likely view my existing versions as "lite" and the upgrades as Pro alternatives to the ridiculously expensive Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro.

Another interesting question would be to see if the upgraded iApps are included on new Macs. That would be clever marketing.

eravau

01-04-2003, 02:41 PM

Why would it be a stronger incentive to buy a Mac if they could get the same apps for "a nominal fee" without having to lay down the money for a new machine?

Let's see...do I want to spend $20 or $2000? hmmm.

If the only way you can get the coolest apps is to get a Mac...that is incentive.

Phil St. Romain

01-04-2003, 07:43 PM

Well, it's a lot better than having to buy the Mac *and* the iApps, if the rumor is even true. And if the price is sufficently more than $20.00, then the incentive is even stronger.

BTW, there are just a few Macs and Powerbooks available for less than $2,000.

sao

01-06-2003, 12:14 AM

This comes as no surprise. I remember reading somewhere, long ago, when Apple started giving out the first iFree Applications, that they would ultimately charge for them.

As much noise as the users make it won't make any difference. It will take Apple a little PR campaign, a small effort at 'manufacturing consent' as Naom Chomsky would say, and the matter will soon be forgotten.

I also read somewhere that 'the first heroin shot is always free...'

Soon, we will be in a position of iMustChoose:

"if you like them, pay for them....and if you don't want to pay, don't buy them"

Cheers...

RacerX

01-06-2003, 01:12 AM

You know checking Apple's web site they have iMovie listed at about $50 and iDVD has a shipping and handling charge of about $20. If iPhoto gets big enough (size wise) that it would be better as a shipped product, then it too would be about $20.

$20 for iPhoto, $20 for iDVD and $50 for iMovie... that sure looks like about $90 to me. If Apple wants to bundle them together for $50 to save people $40 wouldn't that be a good thing?

:confused:

So Apple cuts us a deal and we complain... what a wonderful bunch of users we are.

sao

01-06-2003, 01:56 AM

RacerX,

Maybe I'm confused, I thought iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, iCal, iSync were given for free by Apple, together with the upgrades. Certainly, I never paid for any of them before.

Now, you are telling me that I should pay $50 dollars for a bundle and be grateful? Is this the case?

Please bear with me, and sorry I don't get it, I know...I'm a bit dumb.

I do recall, same as Griffman posted above, that I did paid for the iDVD2 upgrade.

Thanks for your helpful advice.

Cheers...

RacerX

01-06-2003, 03:53 AM

Most of these have been bundled with either systems or other software. I personally didn't have iPhoto on my system when it came out because the download was to large for a 56k connection, so the first time I saw it was after upgrading to Mac OS X v10.2.

To help with keeping this clear, the versions you have are free. You have iMovie (so do I) and it most likely came with either a system or an OS that you got (ie, a friend of mine and I got systems at the same time, mine was an iMac and his an iMac DV, he got iMovie and I didn't, and I would have had to pay for getting it). Apple charges if you want an upgraded version of iMovie. Apple charges if you want any large app or update that is to big to download (Mac OS X's 10.2.3 update is also $20 for shipping and handling like iDVD) shipped to you.

As far as upgrades, Apple has not changed any of there policies on any of the iApps that I have seen. If they charged before (other than as a bundled product), they are continuing to charge. If it was free before, then it seems to still be free (other than shipping and handling charges to get it sent to you). Apple never said that all apps bundle with either systems or OS releases would be updated or upgraded for free. And apps to large for download (like 10.1 was) are going to have shipping and handling charges applied. Like you, I got some free apps including AppleWorks 6.0.4 with my system. I have been happy that I could update it to the newest version (6.2.4) for free so far. But I in no way expect Apple to just give me AppleWorks 7.0 for free because they gave me 6.0 with my system.

The only thing that is new here would be Apple saying "look, we have all three of these apps being upgraded at the same time, if you want them shipped to you we'll give them to you for the same price as iMovie by itself." Like I said, that is a savings of $40 on getting this bundle over having all the parts shipped to you individually, sounds nice to me.

You could just wait for the next major OS upgrade (10.4 or 10.5 maybe) and get the newer versions bundled again. And they are still going to include them with new systems (some of them at least).

I hope that clears it up a little.

sao

01-06-2003, 04:31 AM

RacerX,

Thanks for your advice. So, let me see if I understand:
Griffman wrote:
(free really cool apps) only lasts until the next major upgrade of your bundled iApps.
Does this mean before you got "free really cool apps" (all upgrades were downloadable for free), and now it might change till your "next major upgrade' when you will have to pay to download them?

Well, if I follow your explanation, what does Griffman mean when he says:
But if it includes iPhoto and iMovie, there's gonna be a lot of pissed off users!
Why they should be pissed?

What I understand in your case, is that you couldn't download the upgrades due to your slow modem connection, so it's understandable, that you were happy to pay some money for otherwise free software upgrades (to have them shipped to you)

But that's not the case with people who have faster connections.

I'm still rather confused, and need more clarification.

Cheers...

RacerX

01-06-2003, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by sao
What I understand in your case, is that you couldn't download the upgrades due to your slow modem connection, so it's understandable, that you were happy to pay some money for otherwise free software upgrades (to have them shipped to you)

But that's not the case with people who have faster connections.

Honestly, if it was free to download before, there is nothing that I've seen that says it won't be free to download in the future. This just seems to be a bundling of some iApps that together would normally be over 100 MB. One cost $50 on it's own, so charging $50 for them bundled is still really just paying for one.

I've seen nothing that says you can't get iDVD or iPhoto without iMovie (the $50 app), and if you could download them before then they may still be downloadable in their new form (I'm sure Apple has an upper limit on what they would consider something to big for download... like 10.1 was).

Again, Apple is only offering a bundle of these three apps because they are coming out at the same time for people who would want to upgrade all of them at the same time (which is actually not me as I never use them to begin with). And like before iMovie is still $50.

If you have a fast connection and you don't use iMovie, this has no effect on you.
If you have a slow connection and don't use iMovie, iPhoto and iDVD are most likely going to be $20 each.
If you want the new iMovie, it is $50 (as a download).
If you want all three, you can get the media for all three at the same price as iMovie (a savings of $40).

I'm not sure how I can put this in any other way. From what was linked (a poor source of information to begin with) and from how Apple has been working with these apps in the past, people are getting upset with something that has either no effect on them or saves them $40.

If you don't use iMovie, you should just pretend that you never heard about this. If you use and want to upgrade iMovie, iPhoto, and iDVD and want the media for all of them, then this is your lucky day.

All this because someone was having a slow news day :(

Craig R. Arko

01-06-2003, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by RacerX
All this because someone was having a slow news day :(

That someone being Joe Wilcox at CNet, I presume. As someone mentioned earlier, I believe the basics of this story came out on ThinkSecret, and then were morphed a little more each time someone new printed it.

For me the far more interesting question is what do the new versions of the iApps do, and would any of them be worth buying upgrades for or just waiting to get them loaded on a new system. It beats sitting and stewing anyway.

sao

01-06-2003, 07:16 AM

RacerX,

Thank you for clarifying the issue, I appreciate your effort. And it seems, that the source of the news morphed with time...

Anyhow, if Apple would come out with a 'substantially improved' version of iMovie at a reasonable price, I will probably be the first one to upgrade, same goes for iPhoto.

Cheers...

RacerX

01-06-2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Craig R. Arko
That someone being Joe Wilcox at CNet, I presume.

Joe Wilcox told me that the story he filed and the one that was posted were not the same, and I'll take him at his word for that... though I haven't seen what he did originally file.

:rolleyes:

sirbyronious

01-06-2003, 02:20 PM

If 10.3 is due out in 10 months, why does Apple think everyone's going to jump on board for something that will surely be included then? I really think an update to iMovie is long overdue, and was upset there wasn't anything mentioned with Jag. It seems more and more "switching" points are disappearing...

RacerX

01-06-2003, 03:13 PM

by sirbyronious:
If 10.3 is due out in 10 months, why does Apple think everyone's going to jump on board for something that will surely be included then? I really think an update to iMovie is long overdue, and was upset there wasn't anything mentioned with Jag. It seems more and more "switching" points are disappearing...

First, I don't remember getting iMovie with 10.1 so I don't think it is going to be included with 10.3 if it is the same type of free upgrade (and I would guess less than three months for the release of 10.3 or when new hardware that is designed for Mac OS X only starts shipping).

Second, what do you think is so overdue that iMovie needs an update? I don't use it so I have no idea what would be missing or broken with it. Apple isn't going to make iMovie so great that it cuts into the sales of Final Cut Pro, so don't expect a ton of new features.

And lastly, what does all this have to do with "switching" points? As I've taken the time to point out (a lot of time at that), this actually can only be considered either no change or a plus (depending on who you are). What is disappearing in your view?

sirbyronious

01-06-2003, 04:20 PM

RacerX-

I'm nearly positive that iMovie shipped with 10.1, but I'll have to wait until I get home to check my copy. I do know that iMovie shipped with a computer here at work that had 10.1 preinstalled.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61539&SaveKCWindowURL=http%3A%2F%2Fkbase.info.apple.com%2Fcgi-bin%2FWebObjects%2Fkbase.woa%2Fwa%2FSaveKCToHomePage&searchMode=Assisted&kbhost=kbase.info.apple.com&showButton=false&randomValue=100&showSurvey=false&sessionID=anonymous|161274219

Consider this: During the entirety iMovie 2 was out, iPhoto was introduced and had a major upgrade, iTunes 2 went through upgrades and even went to a different version number (3), and iSync and iCal came out. I don't understand why something like iTunes, THE BEST mp3 app, warrants these updates, while iMovie doesn't see any. What was overdue in iTunes? Something long overdue in iMovie is some sort of 16x9 acceptance. With more and more people buying HDTV's, 16x9 digital camcorders, and other high-def devices, why has it taken so long for Apple to address this issue with iMovie?

The selling points I have effectively used to "switch" people are the little things that differentiate Macs from PCs: free iTools and iApps, the ease of use we have, the better engineered layout, etc,etc..

We lost iTools last year. This year we look to lose the free iApps. And with every article I read on it, it looks that we'll lose the engineering aspect when Apple adapts OSX to Intel's form factor.

AKcrab

01-06-2003, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by sirbyronious And with every article I read on it, it looks that we'll lose the engineering aspect when Apple adapts OSX to Intel's form factor.
--- Insert twilight zone music here ---
Personally, I think this is crazy talk.
We need a pill for "expo fever".

RacerX

01-06-2003, 07:03 PM

There is a difference between an update shipping with the 10.1 upgrade and the actual app. The 10.1 upgrade didn't install iMovie on my system because I didn't have it to begin with. Yes, it shipped bundled with many computers, but that doesn’t change things. I think Apple is saying that it replaced an old version when they say a new version of iMovie is installed. I also didn't get Apple's DVD Player or iDVD put on my system with 10.1, but I never had them to begin with. If I had wanted iMovie before I got 10.2 I would have had to pay Apple $50 for it.

Also, I don't know anyone with HDTV. I would guess that until it becomes the standard that NTSC (or PAL) is, Apple is not going to go out of their way to add it to a consumer product.

by sirbyronious:
We lost iTools last year. This year we look to lose the free iApps. And with every article I read on it, it looks that we'll lose the engineering aspect when Apple adapts OSX to Intel's form factor.

Lets look at this. We lost iTools because people were abusing it, plain and simple. Apple had no way of reforming the system the way it was. Some people had as many as six iTools accounts when Apple had planned on one per system. This year we haven't lost any free iApps that I know of, and it doesn't look like we are going to so far.

And the Intel thing? There is no Mac OS X for Intel. Mac OS X for Intel, the loc Ness Monster and Big Foot are all just about as believable. Until Apple starts getting developers to start writing apps and testing code (as they did with Rhapsody for Intel), it is just a fantasy that some people have.

Something for all of us to keep in mind, people...

Funny, I was brought up not to expect to get things. If I got a gift, I would never expect to continue getting gifts. And I would never be upset for not getting more gifts just because I was given one. My family call this manners, and we were always thankful when we got extra. People, many of these apps were a gift with purchase. Lets not make Apple sorry for including them in the first place, like Apple was sorry for making iTools free and abusable. This is how we lose the cool things.

Whining and complaining over nothing is a good way to screw things up for all of us.

This is just my opinion, but if I were Apple I would stop buncling apps with systems and OS releases after reading some of these post and seeing how thankless users can be. :mad:

Craig R. Arko

01-06-2003, 09:28 PM

No, iMovie2 was included in 10.1. I just checked my 10.1 Server, and there it is, big as life, whether I need it or not. The DVD player would only install on supported systems, I do recall that. And iDVD was shipped with Superdrive systems only and iPhoto was a free download.

But again, the deal is if there are new versions, and they are pay-for upgrades, then what extra features/benefits do they offer to justify about $16 apiece? I want to find out before making up my mind.

sirbyronious

01-06-2003, 09:36 PM

I said switching points. That would mean specific points I personally used to switch friends of mine and help Apple gain customers. When they introduce something like iTools as the Òfree-for-lifeÓ reason for shipping Macs without floppies, and then begin charging for it, itÕs not going to make most of the people happy. I donÕt have a problem buying or paying for something. I do have a problem with someone marketing something as a selling point and then coming back to charge later. If Apple wishes to gain market share buying ÒswitchingÓ users, charging for more and more things isnÕt going to help them. ThatÕs what I meant when I said switching points were disappearing.

I donÕt know how you got 10.1, or if you did, but taken directly from iMovie 2Õs FAQ downloadable from the iMovie 2 website here:

http://www.apple.com/imovie/

ÒiMovie 2 for Mac OS X is built into Mac OS X v10.1Ó The reason you donÕt have iDVD is because you donÕt have a superdrive. If you did, you would. ThatÕs because users expect the hardware included on the computer to have software. DVD-R has iDVD and the ability to burn in the finder. Firewire has iPod, firewire drives, and camcorders. With no iMovie camcorders arenÕt supported out of the box on the Mac.

My main point, before I was attacked for my greediness, questions why iMovie was neglected in the update department while other apps werenÕt. ThatÕs funny that they wonÕt Ògo out of their way to support 16x9 in a consumer product?Ó Why the 17 iMac, the digital HD cinema display, and the Powerbook? Almost all digital camcorders support a cinema or 16x9 mode now. If you donÕt know anyone with HDTV, thatÕs weird cause theyÕve already made their way into wal-mart, so someone must be buying them. I guess youÕre going to have a tough time in 3 years when the government shuts down the analog signal and all thatÕs out there is HD.

I never claimed the Intel comment as fact. I simply stated Òwith each article I read it looks that weÕll lose.Ó If itÕs just rumors thatÕs fine. But more and more credible Mac sites are producing articles about it, so maybe you should look into it instead of dismissing and arguing the point so easily.

I am far from thankless and take offense from that. I, myself, have bought a 600Mhz iBook, an 800Mhz iBook, a 17 iMac, a Dual 867 G4, an airport base station, a Jaguar family license, and other software from Apple all in one years time. I seriously doubt most people have dumped that kind of money into Apple. When I have two computers that are less than a month and a half old, and putting me out almost 4 grand, sure I have a problem being told that the software shipping on it is 2 months away from being outdated and charging me 50 dollars apiece more. IÕm not expecting to get things, nor do I feel it is a gift. People actually buy Macs for Mac-specific apps. Apple uses these apps as selling points just as they used iTools in the past. DonÕt misconstrue my complaints and hopes for Apple to get back to where it was as greed or thanklessness.

AKcrab

01-06-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by sirbyronious
I never claimed the Intel comment as fact. I simply stated Òwith each article I read it looks that weÕll lose.Ó If itÕs just rumors thatÕs fine. But more and more credible Mac sites are producing articles about it, so maybe you should look into it instead of dismissing and arguing the point so easily.
Hi, it's me, Mr. Twilight Zone.
I have researched/read a lot of info on switching to x86 processors, and I stand by my statement. It won't happen. ALL apps would have to be recompiled to run, and with the resistance to the X recompile, can you imagine the response from an announcement that would dictate all developers port again? Not to mention keeping compatibility with current X rigs... I've seen comments from the Andrew Welch, as well as Glenda Adams regarding the problems faced by developers with a processor change. Really, I think you can stop "worrying" about this one. :)
When I have two computers that are less than a month and a half old, and putting me out almost 4 grand, sure I have a problem being told that the software shipping on it is 2 months away from being outdated and charging me 50 dollars apiece more. IÕm not expecting to get things, nor do I feel it is a gift. People actually buy Macs for Mac-specific apps. Apple uses these apps as selling points just as they used iTools in the past. DonÕt misconstrue my complaints and hopes for Apple to get back to where it was as greed or thanklessness.
Remeber... this is all RUMOR. Feel free to come back to this discussion tomorrow when we have the actual facts... I just want to point out that the rumor is for a $50 bundle, is it not? Not $50 for each app...

No more from me till tomorrow. I've bought myself a six-pack of Expo Fever Pills for tonight. :p

Craig R. Arko

01-06-2003, 10:25 PM

What did you do to your post? Or am I the only one getting the funny characters for the apostrophe and quote?

It has that 'pasted from Word' with the curly characters look to it.

vickishome

01-06-2003, 10:32 PM

I'm getting the funny characters here too. I suspected a paste from Word when I saw it, but I'm only guessing.

If the news turns out to be true, there will be all of the typical responses, some of which we're already seeing here. Some will be greatly upset about it. Others won't care one way or another. And everything in between.

I don't think it's anything new for a product to be introduced for free, but start charging later. Actually, I think Bill Gates was one of the most successful in this marketing strategies. Wasn't the first versions of Windows FREE? Is it still free now? Hmmm...

Apple developed a few new products. They gave them away as freebies. People tried them and they liked them. Now Apple would like to make some money from the deal. I have no problem with that. I never thought Apple was making the i-apps out of the goodness of their hearts in the first place.

As far as switchers go... someone will either switch or they won't. If $50 for a bundle of 4 excellent i-apps is too much for them, then they probably weren't all that serious about switching in the first place.

sirbyronious

01-06-2003, 10:38 PM

AKcrab-

My response was actually to RacerX and his comments. I understand the $50 bundle. What I was saying was $50 per computer of which I have two that are a month and a half old. Again, I didn't state an OS X migration to x86 was imminent or fact. I too, have read a lot on the possible switch. There's no reason to completely dismiss this and stop worrying. There are plenty of things Apple has surprised us all with...

Craig R. Arko

01-06-2003, 10:43 PM

Wasn't the first versions of Windows FREE?

There's a trivia question there. :D The first version of Windows was a runtime-only environment that shipped with Excel for the PC v. 1.0. I have a copy.

Back on topic. MacWrite, MacPaint and HyperCard were all originally bundled freebies that later were sold by Claris.

And of course with many of the ADB Macs the keyboard was an additional purchase. ;)

vickishome

01-06-2003, 10:48 PM

Back on topic. MacWrite, MacPaint and HyperCard were all originally bundled freebies that later were sold by Claris.
Ooo, sore subject. :mad: I still have MacDraw Pro sitting on the shelf. Did you know that it still kind of runs in OS 9 Classic? I never could find anything that would import those files, and so I keep them limping along in Classic even in this late date.

Guess that wasn't exactly on topic, was it. :p

RacerX

01-06-2003, 11:16 PM

by sirbyronious:
My main point, before I was attacked for my greediness...

Could you please show us where you, personally, were attacked. Could you please show us where you, personally, were called (or characterized as) greedy. If you have been attacked, please let Craig know about it so something can be done. As far as this thread is concerned, it sure doesn't look like anyone has mistreated you so far.

If you think I was the person who attacked you, personally, I can only suggest that you reread my post... carefully this time. Other than the loc Ness Monster/Big Foot comment, which was actually a joke, I don't see how you could take anything I said to you personally as an attack.

Now that we have cleared that up...

Again, I didn't have iMovie on my system before 10.2.

I don't know how you got 10.1, or if you did...

Interesting comment, what is it supposed to mean? I got my copy from the Apple Store... shrink wrapped, for free no less. So what was your point there?

I never claimed the Intel comment as fact. I simply stated "with each article I read it looks that we'll lose." If it's just rumors that's fine. But more and more credible Mac sites are producing articles about it, so maybe you should look into it instead of dismissing and arguing the point so easily.

Your new here, aren't you? I am generally a credible source and I know many more people who are even more credible than me. I won't take anyone's word that it existed except those people I know who could have had a chance at seeing it. Also, as was the case with Rhapsody all those years ago, Apple won't need to keep it a secret. In fact they would need to get people writing for it as soon as possible if they want to beta test it and make sure that apps for it have had time to be beta tested and ready for a final release. Apple wouldn't just spring an Intel version of their OS on the world and hope for the best.

Basically, the logic of Apple having a secret operating system that is ready for release is just so flawed (and so unlike what Apple has done in the past), that I have absolutely no problem dismissing anything about Mac OS X for Intel. Mac OS X had 4 (actually 6 if you count DP 2.6 and the Public Beta) developer versions, Rhapsody had 2 developer versions before that (and there was Intel versions of that operating system... I should know :D ), when Apple starts releasing developer versions of Mac OS X for Intel then I'll be a believer... that it is still years away that is.

And then their is you and HDTV. I say you as, again, I don't know anyone else who has it. I am willing to make a bet with you, and honest bet, here and now. I'll bet you the top-of-the-line Mac system selling in January 2006 that the government hasn't shut down the analog signal and all that's out there is HD. Terms:
(1) The loser has until February 1, 2006 (1 month after January 1, 2006) to deliver the highest end, shipping computer system made by Apple Computer.
(2) For RacerX to lose, the Government (that is the Federal government, all 50 states and all US territories) has to shut down analog signals and the only thing available is HDTV.
(3) For sirbyronious to lose, analog signals are still being used somewhere in the US.
(4) A tie (or the end of the bet) can only happen if Apple Computer is no longer in existence on January 1, 2006 (can't get a system from a company that isn't around).

Do you, sirbyronious, believe in what you are saying enough for a little bet? :D I'm game if you are.

Craig R. Arko

01-06-2003, 11:28 PM

I think this thread is drifting way off-topic now. :(

You guys could start a new one to talk about HDTV if you want. We've already had a few about OS X for Intel, they seem to pop up about every three months or so. I haven't seen anything new added to those discussions here.

sao

01-07-2003, 05:55 AM

RacerX wrote:
Whining and complaining over nothing is a good way to screw things up for all of us.
And, it's also a way to get information. RacerX, I respect what you say, but I believe that... "El que no llora no mama" (The one who doesn't cry, doesn't get his milk) as we say in latinoamerica. When the baby cries he gets his milk. It's a two way street in nature, everywhere.

RacerX wrote:
This is just my opinion, but if I were Apple I would stop buncling apps with systems and OS releases after reading some of these post and seeing how thankless users can be.
Don't be so sure, my opinion is we need Apple, but Apple needs us... too. And prove of that is that Apple listens to its followers most of the time.

sirbyronious wrote:
I, myself, have bought a 600Mhz iBook, an 800Mhz iBook, a 17 iMac, a Dual 867 G4, an airport base station, a Jaguar family license, and other software from Apple all in one years time. I seriously doubt most people have dumped that kind of money into Apple.
Me. I have six Macs at home. And, I understand your feelings quite well. I had the same problem as you when they came out with MacOS X 10.2. After receiving feedback from users, Apple finally offered a "family plan" for 10.2 for users with 5 computers at home. Maybe they will come up now with some "family bundle" too.

Cheers...

sirbyronious

01-07-2003, 11:51 AM

RacerX

I reread your post. It's clearly directed at me because you argued point by point down my post. The last paragraph, "Something for all of us to keep in mind, people", uses specific words and phrases: manners, thankless, and whining and complaining. (ATTACK) You may think of the apps as gifts with purchase, but they're a reason I bought the computer. If you were to look at it from a new customers perpective, some of the stuff Apple is doing is frustrating. If someone just bought their first Mac say 6 months ago, look at all of the additional costs they've incurred to switch. Two months after purchase, they're hit up with the cost of Jag. Now the app bundle at $50, raises the total spent to almost $200. It's true other companies have followed this strategy with great success, but it's not going to help Apple gain customers and get back market share. That was the whole purpose of my comment.

Again, my main point questions why some apps saw constant updates, while iMovie was neglected. It's clear that Apple does support 16x9 and widescreen in consumer products, so why not iMovie?

About the bet. Why in the world would anyone be willing to bet $2000+ with a total stranger? Something 3 years away, that is totally out of my hands, but in the hands of the bureauracy that is Washington, doesn't present me with good odds. The simple fact is, there's a bill sitting in Washington with a presidents signature on it stating all tv signals must be digital by '06. You know it and I know it. I'm not going to argue just to argue technicalities.

I don't remember stating that an adoption of the x86 platform was imminent. I know it's years away. Kinda what I was doing with the timeline: past, present, future... You might think that I'm new, simply by the fact that I just registered here a few months ago. However, I have been coming to the site and the forums for exactly one year now. Just because I only recently decided to voice my views has nothing to do with anything. There are plenty of people that come to these forums and choose to not post. It seems pretty arrogant to be "a credible source." What makes you so much more credible than me? Credible would be not arguing something like the iMovie in 10.1 issue when I show you direct evidence from Apple, and a site admin told you the same. We have two conflicting views. That's ok. You might feel your right about everything, but I don't. I made a simple 3-sentence comment yesterday and did not expect a critique of every sentence I wrote. It's stuff like this that makes me post so infrequently.

vickishome

01-07-2003, 01:19 PM

So did I hear that right? iMovie, iTunes and iPhoto continue to be free. iDVD will cost $49, and you will get the other iFree apps along with the package. At least that's how I understood it to be announced. I don't need/use iDVD so it looks like I get to continue using the iApps I like for free! Yipee!!

I love the changes they've announced for the intergrated iApps, especially iMovie (I really wanted to edit the audio in the way they showed in the demo). Honestly, I'd pay the $49 for iMovie alone!

Back when I bought my G3, I paid close to $1,000 for a firewire card and EditDV/MotoDV bundle. $1,000. I still have the receipt! And the company went belly up leaving me with a bunch of expensive and worthless hardware and software. Apple has brought digital video editing quite a long ways from where it was in the beginning. I have absolutely no complaints at the announced $49/bundle charge. No complaints at all. :)

sbur

01-07-2003, 01:20 PM

This is getting pretty old. Please move on. You all seem to have valid points, so lets leave it at that.

Phil St. Romain

01-07-2003, 01:25 PM

Hey guys, try refocusing on ideas you agree/disagree with and leave all comments on personal qualities out the door on this one. There's starting to be too much of the latter and too little of the former.

Thanks for your consideration.

RacerX

01-07-2003, 01:37 PM

Phil, I don't want to push the issue, but I would like to clear this up. I hope you understand.

Thanks

sirbyronious,

by sirbyronious:
I reread your post. It's clearly directed at me because you argued point by point down my post. The last paragraph, "Something for all of us to keep in mind, people", uses specific words and phrases: manners, thankless, and whining and complaining.

Wow, I didn't know that you had changed you user name from to people, either that or in the real world your name must bepeople. My statements were aimed at the people of this thread and actually a number of other threads on the subject. You should really take the time to let us people know that you people go by the name people so we don't need to worry about offending you people.

Now to things that you directed at me, personally... my name is RacerX.

by sirbyronious (aka people):
About the bet. Why in the world would anyone be willing to bet $2000+ with a total stranger?

Anyone who could get HDTV and has bought two new computers surely can't be worried about the money. Your statement was very direct and I think it would be fun to see how it turns out. Craig (aka the site admin) knows where I live so it isn't like I'm just someone who is out there... though currently you would qualify in that respect. I considered it a wager between gentlemen (though your increasingly hostile attitude is stretching that definition almost as much as your definition of yourself as people).

Either you believe in your original statement or you don't, this isn't that big a bet. I wouldn't have suggested it if I thought it would break either of us to lose. Besides, I think I would have more than enough time to start saving up if it looks like I'm wrong.

Are you game?

It seems pretty arrogant to be "a credible source." What makes you so much more credible than me?

I don't care much for the arrogant comment, but that is a good question. Craig, sao, and anyone else who has seen me post over the last few years (and who is seeing this now)... am I a credible source of information? What makes me more or less credible than say people (aka sirbyronious) here?

We'll let them come up with their answers.

I made a simple 3-sentence comment yesterday and did not expect a critique of every sentence I wrote. It's stuff like this that makes me post so infrequently.

And I asked for more information on that post. Our major problem here is that you think I'm arrogant and that your name is people. Beyond that I'm not sure why we need the hostility that you are displaying.

Craig R. Arko

01-07-2003, 01:49 PM

Yes, RacerX, I know you are credible in this area. I don't think anybody needs to prove themselves here. I'd prefer that the personal contentions be resolved via email or private messages instead of messing up a perfectly good thread about what turned out to be mostly a non-issue anyway.

I gotta say I'm also not too fond when people start panicking over nothing, especially before that nothing has even transpired. We're much alike in that feeling. Some folks are prone to it, though, so one learns not to sweat it.

vickishome

01-07-2003, 02:11 PM

I'll give this one last try...

Apple has iMovie3 info online now, and it can't be downloaded separately that I can see. So which is it. Do I get to download iMovie3 for free when it becomes available or will I have to pay $49 for the iLive bundle? Not that I'm complaining (not a bit!!), but I'd like to know for sure because I'm a little confused. If I have to get the bundle to get iMovie3, then I'm placing my order today. But since I don't want/need iDVD, I'd rather not buy the bundle needlessly.

Either way, I definitely want iMovie3. I just need to know how to get it.

So will iMovie3 be a free download or will I have to buy iLive? I could swear the way Jobs put it, it would be a free download. Or was that only for iMovie2? :confused: