View Full Version : Anyone else noticed fewer (or no) disk corruption w/ 10.2?
09-14-2002, 11:31 AM
Has anyone else noticed fewer or no cases of disk corruption since upgrading to 10.2?
With OS 10.1.2-10.1.5 I would repair with fsck and DiskWarrior weekly. Fsck would find something about once every six weeks, and DiskWarrior would find something *every* week. Usually DW found things like "2 files had a directory entry with an incorrect text encoding value that was repaired." and "Incorrect values in the Volume Information were repaired." Twice it found "The Boot Blocks are damaged and will be repaired after replacing the directory."
With 10.2 (from 8-25 to 9-14) DW and fsck have found nothing. The security from that alone is nearly worth the $69 Education price. BTW, I did an "Archive and Install", so it is not like I started over with a clean slate.
I'd be interested to know about the experience of others in this regard.
09-14-2002, 02:02 PM
Well, my experience has been 180 degrees opposite of that, but not for the reason you might think.
After a week of good performance out of Jag on my Cube, I suddenly started getting corruptions in the file system left and right. I'd start getting all sorts of weird behaviors such as apps quitting, the finder totally tanking and refusing to run, and kernel panics.
After every one of these incidents, I'd run fsck or the disk utility (from the Jag install CD) and I would find all sorts of file system corruption. Usually unrepairable.
After almost a week of this, I figured that my HD must be the culprit, and bought a new 40GB/7200 western digital to replace the 20GB/5400 that came with my Cube.
I swapped it out, but the same problems kept popping up. I would never get more than an hour into any installation of Jag before it started all over, again.
Well, I finally caved, and called Apple tech support, and get the wonderful news that there are a whole slew of 3rd party RAM modules (PC100/PC133) that aren't quite within spec for 10.2. They'll work fine for OS 9 and earlier installs of 10.x, but don't quite make the grade when using later 10.1.x and 10.2. Which, since I only have the bad 256MB module and the OEM 64MB modlue, leaves me using OS 9.
And, just for the lucky ones who came to the platform, recently, - OS 9 sucks.
09-14-2002, 04:22 PM
I'm sorry to hear that 9killer. Is there anyway to get the seller of the RAM module to swap with you or to swap for a small price? What does the warranty say in this regard?
09-14-2002, 04:54 PM
I'm calling OWC, monday. It's supposed to have a lifetime warranty.
09-14-2002, 04:54 PM
I had purchased some RAM from Microcenter which worked fine for a while, then I started having a lot of problems. When we discovered that the RAM was the trouble, I returned it with my receipt, (many months later than their refund policy states :p ), and they replaced the faulty RAM.
I say if you've got your receipt, truck it back to wherever you got it, and be sure to ask for a manager. ;)
09-14-2002, 04:57 PM
I doubt I have a receipt, anymore since it's been so long, but maybe they'll be gracious considering that I just bought a FireWire HD enclosure from them for that new drive I didn't need.
09-15-2002, 04:40 PM
Interesting ram problem but where would you go to buy ram to avoid the problem in the first place? Does anyone know of Apple spec compliant ram?
09-15-2002, 05:54 PM
Well, the tech support guy was pushing pretty heavily for me to get my RAM from the Apple Store, but I think you'd probably be fine if you bought from a reputiable dealer. I actually did (OWC) but I bought some of thieir generic cheap, cheap RAM. I probably should have got some of their more expensive techworks RAM, I guess.
I'm actually still pretty miffed about it, because RAM is RAM. OS9 Likes it fine, why should it not work with OS X?
09-15-2002, 06:12 PM
On the original subject, I'm having the exact same results. No disk corruption compared to 10.1.x.
On the RAM subject... RAM is not RAM. You have chips that can withstand higher temperatures and voltages, RAM with different latency, and so on. I am not an electrical engineer by any means, so if anyone wants to explain better than me, be my guest.
FYIY, most of the more expensive PC RAM (unless you are a modder or overclocker) on the market is on the low end of the Apple quality scale for spec.
I use RAM from NewerRAM (used to be a dept of newertech, but have been their own company for at least 3 years now). They can be pricey, but stand beside their product. They have a lifetime warranty, and do not care (from my experience) if the RAM has changed hands. I was given RAM with my PowerCenter Pro, and found that one of the 32MB modules was bad. I got a replacement from them after it tested out bad, free of charge. They also replaced any RAM that they had made that was disabled by the Apple firmware update, again free of charge.
09-15-2002, 06:13 PM
I also have a OWC RAM chip - 512 MB, not the Techworks. I haven't had a problem. OWC is very good, and their support is excellent. (I also have one of their FW drives.) I'm betting that they will replace it for you.
09-22-2002, 05:20 PM
The discussion on this forum is so helpful, I am bringing my problem here and throwing myself on your mercy. I really do not know where to turn next.
I have been winnowing through hundreds of pages trying to find out why my ibook seems to be a lemon. I got it in June from MacConnection (is that important? don't know) and immediately had problems with the hard disk maiming itself. It would begin by reporting "keys out of order" errors, then applications wouldn't start immediately after booting (announced by an error message stating something was wrong with shared libraries, CarbonLib), and finally the thing would boot (on OS X) but nothing at all would work---even the System Preferences, if I opened that, would show an empty box. I used, & still use, apps from my old macs (Word 5.1, the Mac OED, an old version of Eudora cause I haven't upgraded yet) more than anything else. System X version of Mozilla. Oh, the photo and music apps, iTunes and whatever it's called.
Apple techs advised me to run a bunch of their diagnostics and then reload all software from the four restore disks that shipped with the machine. I did this I know not how many times. Six at least. Honest. Every time, either the bad behavior would start immediately after the install, or it would be okay for a few hours and then start trashing its own files again.
After a lot of struggles with MacConnection and with Apple (try getting support on a weekend---hah), Apple took the computer back. Twice. The first time they claimed nothing was wrong ("unable to duplicate"), which I think means they turned it on and off, because I sent it to them broken and any attempt to open an application would have elicited the CarbonLib error message. The second time, they were supposed to have tested the RAM (don't know whether that happened) and they replaced the hard disk and cable assembly. This was in June.
Since then I've still seen sporadic odd behavior. It seems to build to a crescendo, and that's where I am now. I bought Norton Systemworks last week to try to cope, and it's not coping at all---it fiddles with thousands of "bad file modification dates", registry errors, and bundle bits and the problem does not go away. I have done two software restores and I still can't use OS X. Thank God 9.2.2 is on here and I can use that, and it seems to be as happy as a clam (so far; I did those two restores yesterday). I am slowly re-adding and using apps one by one, but I strongly doubt that, say, Word 5.1 (my preferred writing environment) or my irreplaceable Mac OED or Mozilla is somehow able to cause the computer to barf on itself like this. It *looks* like a classic disk problem: like a disk peppered with bad blocks. But disk diagnosis s/w (Disk First Aid and Norton) find nothing wrong.
My long-suffering husband is a Unix guy, and though this is my problem he has several times opened files and removed actual strings of garbage (long lines of @s). He's not in the Apple support business though.
I have not noticed a correlation with sleep states. I would like to assume the sleep bug I have read about from early 2000 would have been extirpated by June 2002.
The ibook is a 700 and has a 20G disk. It has 384Mb of RAM (it was sold with 128Mb and I got 256 more from MacConnection, which they installed).
What do I do now? My laptop is my tool, the thing I use all the time all day. It has to be reliable. (Yes, I am backing up files!) I don't know who to go after to get this finally fixed: is this an operating system bug showing up only when I run it in OS X (the version it shipped with)? Is it hardware? Is it the RAM (I suspect the vendor will resist that idea mightily)? Do I spend more money on DiskWarrior and see if that can clean up the garbage? Would upgrading to 10.2 make it stop? And in what *order* should I try to eliminate candidates for problem source?
Elizabeth, the writer
09-22-2002, 07:11 PM
Wow, that sounds exactly like what was happening with my Cube.
Is there any way you can remove all the RAM and try a module that you know works? Or try removing one at a time if you have more than one? The trouble with this problem is that any diagnostic program you use will think the RAM is fine. And technically, it is. It's just not within Apple's specification for OS X. One of the things that freaked me out was that OS 9 installed and ran fine. But OS 9 is about as much fun as herpes: it won't kill you, but it's embarrasing and unpleasant.
From what I gathered from the Apple Tech guy that finally helped me, this is something that's only popped up within the last couple revisions of OS X. Maybe you just got techs who hadn't heard of the problem, yet.
I kept thinking disk problem, too, but it was actually bad RAM corrupting the file system, and writing bad data to disk and causing apps to freak out.
09-22-2002, 11:06 PM
I like 9killer's idea about taking out the additional non-Apple RAM and seeing how it works then.
Now that this has happened with two drives, it would seem unlikely to me that it is a problem with the disk or the installation of OS X, but just in case... Did you actually re-install the whole OS X operating system, or just the software from the restore disks? If you have not already done so, it might be worthwhile (since you have backups) to reformat the hard drive and re-install OS X, 9.2.2, and all the software that it came with. If you'd rather not do that, I've found that DiskWarrior will repair things that fsck and Disk First Aid cannot (and items they claim to fix which re-occur). If you've read more than 1 or 2 forums about disk utilities, then you probably have also read about occasional unpleasant results from Norton SystemWorks---I would not count on that as actually having repaired your disk (especially if it is not the most recent version). I believe that an early version installed something that caused some problems.
For what its worth, DW found a lot of problems with my disk right out of the box from the factory. The same is true of my Mac at the office. It did not find any problems either of these disks after an 'Archive and Install' of Jaguar, so I don't think it was just DW being anal retentive, but something about how OS X was installed at the factory.
09-23-2002, 12:40 PM
Thank you very, very much for taking the time to think about this and post your thoughts.
I'll start by removing the additional RAM and doing another rebuild, and see what happens then. Sheesh, I hope X can at least pretend to run on 128Mb. What a prima donna.
When I restored software, I *had* to use the four-disk total-wipeout-and-(theoretically)-clean-install method. At first I tried just reinstalling OS X, but I could not get the OSX installer on the CD to run all the way through without crashing. For a while I thought I had a bad CD or a CD drive that was damaging the install CD. But the RAM explanation would fit perfectly here. And this would also explain the kind of cumulative nature of the errors.
I guess the Apple people I talked to in June---the second guy was way more together than the first, who thought the "keys out of order" problem was with my keyboard---just had not had this happen to them yet. The second guy did suspect that something besides the disk was corrupting data as it passed through, but he thought it was a cable problem. And, to be honest, if they had said it was RAM, I might have thought they were yanking my chain, because until now, as 9killer wrote above, RAM is RAM and timing has not been an issue! I wouldn't have believed they'd design something so intolerant, but I guess the faster your processor goes, the less room you have for fuzziness everywhere else.
Thanks again for your diagnostic insights. I will post back here to let you know what happens.
Elizabeth, the writer
09-23-2002, 01:26 PM
As far as Jaguar working with 128MB RAM:
After I pulled my 256MB module, I was able to boot 10.2 with only the OEM 64MB module that came with my Cube 450. It ran Jag decently, it seems. But that installation was suspect because it was done with the faulty RAM. I was still having trouble with it.
I was able to boot and run the installer with only 64MB, but it was so excruciatingly slow (I let it run for almost 6 hours and it wasn't finished "reading packages"), that I gave up and am living in OS 9 until my replacement RAM arrives.
You shouldn't have any trouble with only 128MB.
10-24-2002, 04:28 PM
I wanted to report back that after two months running OS X 10.2.x, fsck nor DiskWarrior have reported any problems with my disk. This after having weekly problems under 10.1.*.
9KILLER, has your new RAM come in yet? If so, how are things working now?
Phil St. Romain
10-24-2002, 08:35 PM
No troubles here in 10.2 either, and that's after wrestling a bit with 10.1.x off and on. I checked for fragmentation using SpeedDisk and it was only light.
10-25-2002, 05:41 AM
same for my system - fewer disk corruptions under jaguar.
i'd like to see apple announcing something about the drivers they are using. the last public one was drive setup 1.7.1, since then, every mac or system has silent updates of drive setup or (disk utility). is the last the best? can i use a disk intialized with jaguar with no problems under only-9-macs? shall i use the same, latest driver for all disks i am using on my systems? hmm...
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