.mac ... are you going to do it?

[bassi]

- poll questions from a thread started by griffman -
- several .mac threads merged into this one, which includes discussion predating the macworld expo.
- please vote again if your vote on another thread was lost

(just tidying up the place :) Phil)

-----------------

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/mwny02dotmac.html

I just read this article, it's a rumor but if it's true.....whoa!

I wonder if my mac.com email, with it's "wonderful" spam filtering will be included in this package.

[Craig R. Arko]

Not knowing if this will happen, and if it does, what services one would be buying, it's pretty tough to evaluate.

In about 25 hours we may have a better answer to this question. :D

[dsk]

If this is true, it would be completely ridiculous. I thought that in purchasing a machine that costs nearly triple what a non-Apple computer would cost was enough to entitle me to iTools, or .Mac, or whatever moronic name they have for it now. Personally, I only take advantage of the e-mail address, and to pay over $8 a month for that would be stupid.

Apple has every legal right in the world to do this. But it is immoral to mislead people into thinking that they're getting a free service when it will soon cost an exorbitant fee.

David

[mervTormel]

two words:

e World

:D

http://www.vanvr.com/eworld/index3.html

[bassi]

Merv, that multimedia spoof, I didn't know if I should laugh or cry (tears of joy mind you).
I never heard of eWorld before, sounds a bit flakey to me.

to quote:

"I wouldn't like to be a member of a club that would have me as a member"

Groucho Marx
:D

[mervTormel]

eWorld was apple's attempt at an AOL/prodigy type dealy. it was emptyWorld.

i worked at the apple business unit in Napa, CA when they installed eWorld circa '94-95. it was humongous. i got lost in the eWorld computer room. had to call security to find me and lead me out. it was another example of apple innovation (newton) that never got legs. multi-billion dollar ghost-town replete with tumbleweeds. but, in the long-term, i think it gave apple a couple of things. another lesson and a host of sharp people who contributed a lot to our current milieu.

-mt (empty)

[bassi]

Merv,

I see, so you think that .Mac will be the bas***d cousin of Apple's eWorld initiative.

A virtual world where Macheads can convene, shut out reality and imagine Apples aren't harmful to you unless someone throws a ton of them on your head :D

On an entirely different note, I've been thinking of turning to Linux soon. Yellowdog has just come out in 2.3, I played with it on a TiBook and had a marvelous time. Maybe this belongs in another thread but I'm getting quite annoyed at the price of software these days. If 10.2, .Mac etc. costs an arm and a leg I'll wait until I buy a new Mac late 2003.

OS 10.5 anyone :)

[mervTormel]

well, if .mac looks anything like apple's current incarnation of net services, they're going to have to pay me to look at it.

i'm a bad subject, tho. those services don't provide me with anything.

do let us know about yellowdog, eh? (what a horrible product name)

[SSUJoe]

Maybe this belongs in another thread

Yeah well then this does too! :D

I'm running YellowDog 2.3 on my iBook, and I must say it's very nice.
If nothing else, it uses a bootloader that pops up after the chime, and allows me to press X for OSX, M for 9, or L for linux.
I like that feature on it's own, as I sometimes can't decide what OS I want to boot into until that last second.
YDL & KDE run very smooth with only 384 MB of RAM to work with, and seeing my buddies drool is SO worth it!

[bassi]

Although I haven't installed it yet, I was wondering how yaboot works with the open firmware password.
At home I can't see this problem, but at work I've installed it for some added protection on the Mac.
I suppose if you restart with "apple+O+F" it should allow you to do the keystroke to get yaboot, if not I'm gonna wait until there's a way around it. Or maybe I'm just :confused:
Can yaboot be configured with a password?

I'm going to install YDL 2.3 on my TiBook along with 10.1.5 and 9.2.2 and play with it this weekend. YDL on a friends TiBook was a dream to behold, so simple (like X) and in the background I just couldn't help thinking that this is a free OS and the plethora of programs are pretty good, even alternatives for my scientific work. I was sold. I'll keep OSX for the slow chewing eye candy moments ;) and those so called "killer apps".

I know all of the above probably doesn't belong on this forum, but the following does.
In a strange way using OSX is made me consider Linux as well, I wouldn't have dreamt of using Linux whilst I was happy with OS9. Now I am, mainly because of my interest in the Unix underbelly, and discovering open source. I was ignorant of all of it.
I've been using Macs happily since '91. A switch back, eh Apple :D

[JayBee]

back to the actual topic.

Oh dear apple. Let's hide tha money grab behind some nice features, shall we? £100 for 10.2 and $49 for the first year (and $99 thereafter) just so I can use my mac.com email address? I assume this means they're taking the iDisk integration out of the core OS. Or are they now going to pop up a "Hey, you can buy this if you want" ad every time I look at system prefs?

Urgh. Not good. Nice tech announcements, but ".mac"? Come on guys, what were you smoking?

[wayneyoung]

Well, now that it is a fact .net will cost $100.00, I give an emphatic NO as my answer. Nor am I likely to pay $129.00 for OSX 10.2. I'm not sure I'll buy 10.2 anytime soon even if the upgrade costs half that! Wow, what a way to start my day, I'm mad!:mad:

[Craig R. Arko]

No, I don't think so. I might try the one year at $49 for a single account for our business, but I switched anything using my mac.com mail account to point elsewhere, and cleaned out the iDisk.

It remains to be seen if any of my customers will use .Mac. I can see where it might be useful for a few of them, who travel a lot.

[bluehz]

This is absolutely ludicrous! I have no problems with Apple generating capital through this means, etc. What I do have a problem with is giving all these people e-mail addresses that they rely on and then tell them two years later they have to pay for them. That is ridiculous! I feel they should leave people's - email alone. iTools = free e-mail and thats it...you want server space,etc - you pay. I could live with that. Also - I feel like the price we pay for new Mac's is high enough to cover the cost of iTool (.mac). Will they lower the price on Macs after September? I doubt it....

[dsk]

...Not to mention the fact that everytime we send an e-mail or give someone our address, we advertise for Apple.

I do think that there should be varying levels of service, corresponding to different yearly prices. Heck, I would even pay a nominal fee for the e-mail alone (free POP mail is hard to find these days).

Anyway, I think I'll pay the $50 for the first year--seems worth it to have an e-mail address that is not tied to an ISP that I might change. After one year, I'll see how I feel about paying $100 for another.

What's really gonna hurt is the price of Jaguar--my goodness. But between iChat, iCal, iSync, Sherlock, I don't know if I'll be able to resist it. Anyone know if there is an educational discount, and how significant it is?

David

[nkuvu]

I have heard rumors that the upgrade for Jaguar will be $20. But those are just rumors -- and they're new ones, released this morning. If that's the case, I'll upgrade.

I'm torn about the .Mac garbage, though. I use my mac.com email a lot.

From the FAQ:
Q: What does a .Mac membership include?

A .Mac membership includes everything you need for life on the Internet. Join .Mac and get the tools you need to share and communicate with family and friends, while keeping your system safe. Software and services included with a .Mac membership are:

Communication and sharing

HomePage with new visitor feedback features
Mac.com Email with IMAP and 15MB of storage that can be upgraded for
more
Ability to purchase up to 10 additional email accounts
iDisk with 100MB of storage that can be upgraded for more
iDisk utility software for group sharing of files


Safety and security

Backup software to back up your files to iDisk, CD, or DVD
Virex anti-virus software to keep your system protected
Continuous anti-virus updates to protect from the latest threats
Members-only support with private discussion boards moderated by Apple
technical support representatives

[bassi]

...which you can't configure for $100. Or even turn off or have a mailbox set up for it. I've several emails lost in the ether because of it.

[Phil St. Romain]

Originally posted by wayneyoung
Well, now that it is a fact .net will cost $100.00, I give an emphatic NO as my answer. Nor am I likely to pay $129.00 for OSX 10.2. I'm not sure I'll buy 10.2 anytime soon even if the upgrade costs half that! Wow, what a way to start my day, I'm mad!:mad:

wayneyoung, what's your big objection to 10.2? Just wondering.

As for .mac, it just seems to me that Apple has decided that the PR benefits of iTools no longer justifies the expense they're putting out for it. And now that "everyone else is doing it" (making money), well, why not?

If we were starting with no prior history of iTools, it might seem a bargain, of sorts. But "taking back" a free service is what rubs the wrong way, for sure. I wish they could have continued with a free option (one web email only) and "Plus" option (POP email plus expanded web storage), charging for the latter. That would have been better.

When I consider that a lot of ISPs charge $2.00 - 5.00 a month for an extra email address and give only 5 mb of storgage per account, it's not a bad deal, really. I'll be keeping one of my mac.com address because I really like it and use it, but allowing a couple of others I've set up to lapse. (Yes, I did have more than one! ;))

BTW, what are the other options for free POP email now? Not many, I don't think.

Phil

[Craig R. Arko]

Originally posted by nkuvu
I have heard rumors that the upgrade for Jaguar will be $20.

That's if you buy a new Mac between now and Aug. 24th. I was expecting $99, so this one doesn't surprise me too much. 10.2 Server will be the full price too.

[bluehz]

The option I have chosen is to further rely on the PC I pulled out of a dumpster, installed Linux on it, and setup qmail mailserver for my internal LAN of Mac OS machines - all my own and no one to tell me what to do with it. This of course could be accomplished with OS X also. See recent tips on Hints page - search for qmail.

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain

BTW, what are the other options for free POP email now? Not many, I don't think.

[griffman]

It looks like I'm in for most of the first year, as I just upgraded my iDisk capacity about two months ago ... for $49, I was considering it.

For $99, I'll require complete control over my email and no limits on page hits on my site. If those two things happen, it's a bargain for me -- the 20,000 downloads of my OS X Solutions Guidebook from mac.com probably saved me somewhere around $150 in bandwidth charges on macosxhints.com!

-rob.

[bluehz]

Hear! Hear! At the VERY LEAST!!!

Originally posted by griffman
I'll require complete control over my email and no limits on page hits on my site.

[wayneyoung]

Phil,
Thanks for asking. However, I don't really have a problem with 10.2, I was really looking forward to getting the next version of OSX with features we have all been looking for this past year or so, and hopefully the death of a few remaining bugs. I can't see paying full price for a point upgrade either. This is also one reason I left the Wintel world three years ago. I was constantly upgrading my software just to get a more stable system. Mac is different though, because with 10.1.5 my system is stable, I can do what I need to do, and I am reasonably satisfied, but I doubt any of the bugs remaining will be fixed unless I go to 10.2, and of course, a whole new set of bugs will be introduced, and we will all be looking for 10.2.x before long. Anyway, I hope Apple tells us soon there will be an inexpensive upgrade to 10.2, or I may stick with 10.1.5 for quite a while.

Wayne

[Phil St. Romain]

I hear you wayne. There are a lot of missing features (from OS 9) finally added back in 10.2, but it seems to me there are many, many more new features as well. When I consider that the jump from OS 8 to 8.5 was considered a fell upgrade without much to show for it (OK, Sherlock and ASM, mainly), I think this is a much better deal.

As for the point upgrade, my guess is that we're on a new scale now. An upgrade of this magnitude would be .5 or even 1.0 addition. Apple apparently wants to stay in that X-zone for quite awhile. It may take decades to finally get to OS 11. ;)

[JayBee]

Just to let you guys know, it looks like there IS a free mail-only option for .mac:

Converting your .Mac trial account to an email-only account

IMPORTANT: If you choose to convert your trial account to an email-only account, all your data files on Apple's servers (except for email messages) will be removed. Other .Mac services, such as iDisk, HomePage, Backup, and Virex, are not accessible to email-only accounts.

To convert your trial account to email-only, go to www.mac.com. Click Account in the .Mac menu bar, then click the Email Account Management button. Enter the member name and password of the trial account you'd like to convert, then click Convert.

Print your account information for future reference, then click Continue.

This was snagged from .mac's help section, under "email" - it's right at the bottom of the list of options you get.

What I want to know is whether this action kills my chance to update for $49. Also, what I really want to know is how much this is going to cost in the UK. Going to the .mac section on the UK apple site just takes me to the US version...

As for Jaguar... I'm thinking £99 is pretty reasonable. This ain't no "point" release in the traditional sense. I now see what apple's numbering policy is. As they've said all along, the X/10 part IS the operating system. It's "Mac OS X", not "Mac OS, version 10". Looks like 10.2 ain't no point release - it's a version jump. 8-9 stylee.

However, I DO want a damned upgrade price. I don't hold with the "I've been beta testing! 10.2 is the real deal" stuff, but I do reckon that an upgrade policy is standard practice. Nobody expects an upgrade price for Dreamweaver MX "because v4 was just a beta, really", they expect it because they are existing customers, and expect to be treated a little better by a company they've already given money to.

Regardless, I'll still be buying it. I'll just be a bit miffed.

On the plus side, a system reinstall won't require 3 disks (10.0 -> 10.1 -> 10.2) with a shiny new full release copy :)

[Markle]

Phil: "As for .mac, it just seems to me that Apple has decided that the PR benefits of iTools no longer justifies the expense they're putting out for it. And now that "everyone else is doing it" (making money), well, why not?"

Here's the scenario I see: Those who bought into the Mac or upgraded in reliance on the promise of iTools start a class action, which gets settled by Apple giving a big concession on .Mac to those who can prove they bought in during the time the offer and promise was/were being made.

Apple always had the reputation of being a little nicer than the hard-assed Microsoft. They've been chipping away at that PR advantage for a while now, and this latest slap doesn't do them any good at all.

Markle

[Phil St. Romain]

Markle, you know any lawyer we might contact? ;)

[Markle]

Originally posted by JayBee
...I DO want a damned upgrade price. I don't hold with the "I've been beta testing! 10.2 is the real deal" stuff, but I do reckon that an upgrade policy is standard practice. Nobody expects an upgrade price for Dreamweaver MX "because v4 was just a beta, really", they expect it because they are existing customers, and expect to be treated a little better by a company they've already given money to.

What you expect and what you get aren't always the same thing. This is the company that got people to pay it for the privilege of beta testing its software. Why should it go soft now?

Regardless, I'll still be buying it. I'll just be a bit miffed.

Therein lies the problem--people continuing to give Apple money no matter what it does. How does Apple know that you're miffed? Your checkbook says otherwise.

Markle

[Markle]

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain
Markle, you know any lawyer we might contact? ;)

Ha! I should give it some thought, Phil. The referral fee would be huge! :D

Markle

[Craig R. Arko]

Ah, class action: the mating cry of the J.D.

Hey JayBee, I'm having trouble finding that link you refer to. Can you give more instruction on where to find that? All I can find is a reference to adding mail-only accounts for $10/year to an existing .Mac account.

Apple would be smart, I think, to consider giving existing iTools users the option of converting to email only, even if it is $10/year.

[JayBee]

Originally posted by Markle

Therein lies the problem--people continuing to give Apple money no matter what it does. How does Apple know that you're miffed? Your checkbook says otherwise.

Markle

Indeed. I think a few emails are going to be sent airing the views. At the end of the day, though, when it comes to Jaguar, they don't really have any obligation other than goodwill to provide an upgrade price. £99 is within my budget (and around what I figured they'd charge anyway). I'm not protesting too much about it, as they have a product I want at a price I must admit is reasonable, if not ideal. I want it, they got it, and really I don't have much to complain about except their lack of goodwill.

However, .mac is something totally different. $49 (or whatever they end up charging us UK bods) is out of my budget for what I use it for - email. I'll have to wait and see whether I use any of the other stuff before I can make a judgement, but regardless - shutting off access to a cut-down free version makes my blood boil. Especially when (as I noted), they actually seem to be offering a free version, but going to great pains to hide it from view.

Email addresses are very tricky things. I've just gone around telling everyone to use my mac.com address if they want to contact me - I've gone to great pains to hide it from spammers and keep it "clean". It's my personal address, as opposed to my work address.

And now mac seems to want me to go around all my friends and say "Actually, I've had to cancel the mac.com address cos they decided to try and sting me $100 per year for it". Great PR, eh?

[JayBee]

Phil ... [edit - you're not Phil! You're Craig!] Here's the link (http://help.apple.com/mac/17/help/mail/pgs/mac43.htm).

To find this, go to mac.com (http://www.mac.com/), then click on "help" in the top bar. Select "On the desktop" under the "Email at mac.com" header in the window that pops up.

Theres now a list of help items in a scrolling frame. Scroll right to the bottom, past the "Adding", "Editing" and "Moving" items that refer to the $10 per email accounts, and click on "Converting your .Mac trial account to an email-only account".

Admittedly, it doesn't actually specify "free"... might send off another email about this...

[dsk]

To convert your trial account to email-only, go to www.mac.com. Click Account in the .Mac menu bar, then click the Email Account Management button. Enter the member name and password of the trial account you'd like to convert, then click Convert.


Actually, I can't even find what the hell they are talking about. Can anyone find "Email Account Management"?

David

[Craig R. Arko]

Thanks! I'm the 'other' Phil now (Lerk used to be the 'other' Phil but we traded shifts). :D

This would be a good thing if you can just do this switch. Anybody wanna try it and see if it works?

[melg]

- Poll question by griffman - This opening post from a merged thread -

--------

Apple has decided to start charging for its iTools replacement .Mac. With a price tag of $100 for a year and $50 for present users (up until September).

I've had a mac.com email address for a few years now and had no problem allowing Apple to get free advertising via my email address for the price they were charging (i.e. no charge).:D

However, given the new pricing structure, I think may give up my mac.com address. Sure, you get additional space and some software, but none of the extras appeal to anything I need (I'm on dial-up).

Before I decide, however, I'd like to hear from others about whether you will be sticking with .Mac or not and why.

Mel

[Markle]

JayBee: "At the end of the day, though, when it comes to Jaguar, they don't really have any obligation other than goodwill to provide an upgrade price."

Some might say that this view only encourages software publishers to take their time fixing bugs, doing only a few at a time so they can charge for each edition of the fixes.

In the end, of course, everybody is entitled to make their own decisions about what they're willing to accept, and what they're willing to pay for.

Markle

[JayBee]

hmm. Snake oil tastic.

Anyone actually know how to CONTACT Apple? I've been doing the pillar-to-post rounds on the site for a while - I just want an email address or a form to give them some feedback, but it looks like they've closed the blast doors :(

[wayneyoung]

For feedback to Apple, this site is still available. http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

[dvice]

I plan to switch for a few reasons.

iTools / .Mac on OSX and a high speed connection, is finally fast enough for me to be practical. Before, I liked the idea of iTools, but everything took to long. I had just recently been exploring iTool again when I updated OSX and was suprized at the increase in speed.

Maintaining the family web site will be much easier. My families web site has not been updated in three years because as a web designer, the last thing I want to do is come home a work on another web site. But with iPhoto and .Mac, I will be able to keep the relatives happy without having to mess with a lot of code.

Streaming videos work very well, my wife's business has recently needed to post a streaming movie to the web quickly, the solution was quick and simple, iMovie to QuickTime to iTools. We beat the socks off a compeditor in turn-around time, one day, start to finish.

So, while I wish dial-up was included in the price (what we have at home), I think these reasons are worth it for me, not to mention the other features which Apple has brought to the bargain.

[mervTormel]

.mac specific feedback page... (http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html)

[mervTormel]

.mac specific feedback page... (http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html)

[hombre]

I pounced on iTools when it came out (which took some effort, since I was running 8.6 and did not wish to upgrade). I thought "Great, now I can have the same email address forever, even when I switch ISPs." I wrote email to what seems like half the Western world to apprise them of this happy circumstance.

So now, needless to say, I feel rather like the victim of a bait-and-switch, although I would like to believe that this did not entail premeditation on Apples's part.

The truth is, however, that I am lazier than I a frugal and may well wind up popping for it. It is not at all clear to me that it would be worth it though. :/

[Phil St. Romain]

Truth be told, gang, 10.2 is every bit as significant an upgrade as any other in recent memory that Apple has charged for. In fact, the last one that added this many features and performance enhancements was going from 7.6.1 to 8.0. Apple charged full price for 8.5 and 9.0, neither of which had anything close to what Jaguar is adding.

Just a perspective on things . . . and that's without even considering the other side of the tracks, where PC users are occasionally asked to pay full upgrade fees for much, much less than Jaguar is adding to the platform.

[dsk]

The discussion of a mail-only .Mac account. JayBee posted a quote suggesting this is possible, but I have yet to actually see that option anywhere on the .Mac account management site.

So, JayBee or anyone else, have you found this function yet?

David

[wayneyoung]

http://help.apple.com/mac/17/help/mail/pgs/mac43.htm will get you there.

update: the button for email account management doesn't exist. Presumably it will at some point before the trial expires.

[griffman]

Vote and post your opinions! Let's hear what you think...

[SSUJoe]

They'll get my $49, but next year........well hopefully by then they'll have some features to make it worth it to me.

I'll be buying a new mac before Jag's release, so I can look forward to a cheap upgrade!

[Alex281]

I'm not sure yet myself, i was wondering what everyone else was planning on doing. Everyone is complaining but will we break down and pay?

[tarmaque]

No, I say. No. The only part of iTools I used much was e-mail, and I don't depend on that. I suppose there are people out there who use and depend on those other services but I don't see many continuing at those prices! I certainly won't be paying USD $100 a year for a bigger mailbox that I don't need anyway (and the privilege of PAYING for up to 10 more e-mail addresses!)

p.s. I've already deleted everything to do with my iTools account.

[dagegen]

Much worse than are you going to pay for it, is that if you don't your account will be deactivated, according to the apple website anyway.

At least with drug dealers you KNOW it's a 'free' sample.

[Alex281]

At least with drug dealers you KNOW it's a 'free' sample.

LOL! :cool:

[hschickel]

Already in. .mac rocks.

Hugh

[nkuvu]

I've already started moving my webpages -- which is good, I need to un-rust my rusty HTML skills.

Other than that, I really only use the email. But I'd hate to lose that. So... $49 for another year of mac.com email? I'm not sure it's worth it.

I'll wait a while -- perhaps the roar of the masses will convince Apple to offer email-only services at a lower price. And I have until the end of September to decide...

[saint.duo]

haven't decided yet. i love my @mac.com email address, but that is all I use (dot)Mac for. There seems to be an inkling in the help files about converting a trial account to email only. I figure I'll sit on that until something pans out, since I have a few family members using (dot)Mac for email only.

I could use my DSL provider for email, but I'd have to switch addresses again in a year when I move for school. yuck.

Since I already have my own domain, and I completely control the machine(s) that it's run on, I may just do my own email from here on out, too.

[bassi]

I'm waiting till September. I think they'll sweeten the deal because of hold outs. I hope so :rolleyes:

By the way, about the name ".Mac"

Doesn't a "." in front of a name in Unix make it invisible. Rather unfortunate really.

:D

[Barty]

A lot of polls are asking "Will you subscribe..."
Mine is here to answer to "Did you do it ?"
I did

[Craig R. Arko]

Originally posted by griffman
For $99, I'll require complete control over my email and no limits on page hits on my site. If those two things happen, it's a bargain for me -- the 20,000 downloads of my OS X Solutions Guidebook from mac.com probably saved me somewhere around $150 in bandwidth charges on macosxhints.com!

-rob.

Rob; based on the terms of service (http://www.mac.com/1/membership_terms.html) it doesn't look like it.

I'm thinking more in terms of Merv's description of the big, empty eWorld room all the time as I think about this. :(

[Waterman1]

I found this in the .Mac help files:

Converting your .Mac trial account to an email-only account

IMPORTANT: If you choose to convert your trial account to an email-only account, all your data files on Apple's servers (except for email messages) will be removed. Other .Mac services, such as iDisk, HomePage, Backup, and Virex, are not accessible to email-only accounts.

To convert your trial account to email-only, go to www.mac.com. Click Account in the .Mac menu bar, then click the Email Account Management button. Enter the member name and password of the trial account you'd like to convert, then click Convert.

Print your account information for future reference, then click Continue.

I couldn't get to the Email Account Management button to see if this is free or a paid accoint.

[DSHwrd]

Waterman beat me to the punch!

Yes, you can set up an e-mail only account and that's exactly what I plan to do, seeing as it's all I use.

I feel a little better about the .Mac now.

Cheers,

[dsk]

For those of you (like me) who used the iTools/.Mac service almost exclusively for e-mail, I've found what may be a viable alternative.

Namezero (www.namezero.com) offers domain registration, along with 10 MB mail storage and POP access for $19.95/year (for the first year anyway, I'm not sure beyond that, but I think it will be less than .Mac).

So rather than having yourname@mac.com, you can have yourname@yourname.com for less money. There are probably other providers of this type of service, but Namezero particularly appeals to me. Apparently there is no web storage space though, so if you want to host a site you may have to find some other service to provide the space.

Sorry if this is irrelevant or off topic, but I thought you guys might like to know, in case the whole "e-mail only" option on .Mac never comes to fruition.

David

[nkuvu]

But the Email Account Management button doesn't exist.

[hombre]

Hey Hugh, Have you tried Virex 7.1 yet? As a user of 7.0, I can attest that there is room for improvement (although basically I like it). I have seen nothing announced about what the differences are. As far as the Virex website is concerned, it seems not to exist yet.

Thanks

Stuart

[briandoyle]

You CANNOT get free e-mail. The .Mac convert feature spoken of previously is only for full paying customers who purchase additional mac.com e-mail addresses.

I am sending one feedback everyday through the link on the .Mac webpage asking them to give us our e-mail for free, as they promised.

BD

[dbhill]

Yeah, you bet!!! The Mac has given me a great life, and I'm happy to send them money every chance I get. I don't care if I get a huge benefit from '.mac', it's Apple and I support it.

~Dennis

[lerkfish]

hey, I just signed up for the $49 first year....muy cool! just the backup program is worth it.

[davejr]

well at least I still have my free hotmail email address

[bakaDeshi]

bakaDeshi@macosxhints.com

how about it, rob??:D :D

You can lure in everyone for free for a couple of years and then start charging everyone. :p

-bD

[lamont]

$US99.95 is about $AU220.00 with bank conversion charges etc. etc.

If it was a ONCE ONLY charge, I would not hesitate, but with ongoing and inevitable price rises and inflation every year - no thanks.

I only use the Email service and will continue to do so if the Account Management Button ever makes an appearance - if not, it's the flick for .Mac

PS. Perhaps Apple are "only testing the water!" - if so lets hope the scheme gets a bucket of cold water thrown over its cost structure.......

[xchanyazy]

This is really more about 10.2, but people were asking about it earlier..

From the campus apple guy:

Hi folks,

For those of you who subscribed to the Mac OS 3-Year Maintenance, you are covered for 3 years for these types of upgrades (through March 2005). That was the whole point of the maintenance! As soon as Jaguar's released we'll start offering CDs at a nominal price (probably $6 apiece) so maintenance subscribers can install it on their licensed machines.

For those of you without maintenance, you can still obtain maintenance licenses on an ongoing basis:

<https://cgi.www.umich.edu/~itdweb/macos/macos_tap_cont_order_form.html>

Note also that the price of maintenance will drop after 9/15/2002, so if you want to upgrade to Jaguar and don't mind waiting a few weeks to get it, just hold out and order it then.

Without any maintenance, you would have to pay the full Educational discount price of $69 at M-Stores for a shrinkwrap copy. If there was enough non-maintenance interest, we could probably band together to get a marginally discounted license-only purchase, but that would still be in the $50/license range and hardly seems worthwhile.

I hope this clears up the matter. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks.

So, $69 for education, and a possibility to get a $49 site license type upgrade.

Considering I got 10.0 for 29 dollars (educational with public beta), $69 is a little disappointing, but not so bad.

About .mac, screw it. It may be worth it to me if I could lock in the $49 price for a long period of time, but as is I have my school's servers for another 2 years (or 3 depending on the whole "graduating" thing), I'm not even going to think about it for another couple years, which should coincide with a price drop *crosses fingers*

[sao]

I'm going to sign up to .Mac

It's handy and price wise not so bad for the first year.

And can't wait to get 10.2

Although money is somehow not a problem for me right now, I understand it should probably be difficult to afford for other people.

And considering there are quite a few million of macintosh users worldwide (does anyone know a more accurate figure?) multiplied by US$129, then Apple is going to get a big chunk of money for a software upgrade.

I wonder what was the cost for programmers plus R&D, in the making of 10.2?

Oh, I love the concept of 'open source' more and more.

I have five macs at home, does this means I need to buy five 10.2 upgrades? Anybody?


Cheers...

[sbur]

Originally posted by dsk

What's really gonna hurt is the price of Jaguar--my goodness. But between iChat, iCal, iSync, Sherlock, I don't know if I'll be able to resist it. Anyone know if there is an educational discount, and how significant it is?

David

Education price for 10.2 is $70. Much more in line with my pocketbook.

[JayBee]

Just had a thought - is there any point in subscribing to .mac before 30 Sept., regardless of your philosophical standpoint on .mac?

$49 gets you a year, right? It's free till the start of October, right? So by subscribing early, you miss out on up to two months of free/cheap service as you'll only get until say August next year, then have to pony up your $100, whereas leaving it till 30/9 you'll get two more months' cheapness...

Just something that ocurred to me. This is where I get hunted down and shot by those of you who have canned up the cash already...

[nkuvu]

Originally posted by JayBee
Just had a thought - is there any point in subscribing to .mac before 30 Sept., regardless of your philosophical standpoint on .mac?

$49 gets you a year, right? It's free till the start of October, right? So by subscribing early, you miss out on up to two months of free/cheap service as you'll only get until say August next year, then have to pony up your $100, whereas leaving it till 30/9 you'll get two more months' cheapness...

Just something that ocurred to me. This is where I get hunted down and shot by those of you who have canned up the cash already...
My thoughts exactly. But I didn't want to be burned at the stake, so I kept my mouth shut until someone else brought it up. ;)

[mervTormel]

Just had a thought - is there any point in subscribing to .mac before 30 Sept., regardless of your philosophical standpoint on .mac?
thanks for pointing out the folly in 'early adoption rate' strategies :D

i'm still evaluating the service. i like the idea of off-site backup for critical files, as long as i'm goddam-guaranteed security, privacy, integrity and retrieval.

let's look at the services...

Communication and sharing

* HomePage with new visitor feedback features
* Mac.com Email with IMAP and 15MB of storage that can be upgraded for more
* Ability to purchase up to 10 additional email accounts
* iDisk with 100MB of storage that can be upgraded for more
* iDisk utility software for group sharing of files

Safety and security

* Backup software to back up your files to iDisk, CD, or DVD
* Virex anti-virus software to keep your system protected
* Continuous anti-virus updates to protect from the latest threats
* Members-only support with private discussion boards moderated by Apple technical support representatives

if the services have value for you and are robust, (100/12=) $8.34USD a month isn't a bad price.

as for virex... huh? has anybody exercised this thing enough to know that it works? has it found and eradicated a virus for anyone? how does it work? does it stick its fingers in the naughty bits and screw up yer rig like norton?

in review, i don't understand all the whinging about the costs. we're getting a hell of a lot of tools in the total package. amortize the costs over a year and you have reality...

OSX 10.2 @ $130.00 + .macServices @ $50.00 = $180.00 / 12 = $15.00 per month

my sister wastes more money on breakfast cereals for her three kids in a month.

p.s. the other day, i only had 59 days left in my trial .mac service. today, i have 70 days left.

--
these are my opinions. if you don't like them, i have others.

[nkuvu]

Because the payments are in lump sums (not monthly), I have two months to save $50 if I want to do this, which would be approximately $25 per month.

Only then can I start considering the price to be $8 per month -- by saving that much each month before having to pay the $100 next year.

The $130 for Jaguar can't be broken up into the same monthly payments, unless I want to wait until next year. But for the sake of argument (discussion, really, since I hope this doesn't degenerate into an argument), let's say I wait until Sept 30th to get the .mac subscription and Jaguar at the same time.

That's $130+$50 = $180, divided by two months (and change) to get about $90 per month.

A very different number than $15 per month, and one that I may or may not be able to afford.

I'm not talking about value for the money or anything like that. It's just that simplifying it down to $15 per month is an unrealistic simplfication IMO.

[mervTormel]

I'm not talking about value for the money or anything like that. It's just that simplifying it down to $15 per month is an unrealistic simplfication IMO.
i hear ya. but if you can't scratch $100 together, you've got some bigger problems. what would you do in the case of an emergency?

amortization is a tried and true money management technique. it compensates for a complete lack of money management :D

i suggest you make more money, or spend less. don't get me wrong. i don't mean to sound parental. but, i see a lot of people who waste so much frickin' money on pure *****e. and have no concept of a budget. and live beyond their means. living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck must be an awful strain.

i'm not saying you're of that ilk. but, if you think $250.00 is a lot of money, you've got some serious considerations to make.

at age 25, i think you're supposed to have a year's salary in a savings account somewhere. how? sacrafice.

bill of no rights (http://home.mindspring.com/~bduart/billOfNoRights.txt)

[bakaDeshi]

Originally posted by sao
I have five macs at home, does this means I need to buy five 10.2 upgrades? Anybody?Apple != MS (at least not yet) I think you're pretty safe here. I have not heard of any draconian serial numbers implemented in jag but I could be dead wrong.

Yeah, there's no monthly payment plan being offered by Apple so it's $50 once which I will probably have to take a pass on as well(still no income and the dow keeps goin' down).

Virex? Do we need? I assume OSX being *nix that it will be susceptable to *nix viral. Are there a lot of *nix viral out there? I've only had one virus in all my mac years(10+).

The Backup utility is the only thing that is peeking my interest a little and not having to switch email addresses.

I think I've got enough change in my piggy bank for jag. Time to crack it open. I should probably save it for food but I've got have priorities you know. :p

-bD

[nkuvu]

It's all a matter of priority, merv. In the case of an emergency, I could easily scrape up money. This isn't an emergency.

For me, updating to Jaguar is not a required expense. I'd like to do it, but I haven't decided if I'll be able to justify the expense. Nor is .mac a necessary expense -- it's a convenience thing for me, since currently I'm only using the email.

At age 25 I was still in college, so my yearly salary was pretty low. Not that I had a year's salary in savings (still don't) but...

I think $250 is a lot of money. I make a lot more than this -- I'm a software engineer, after all. But I've lived for too long on low-income wages to think that $250 is pocket change. Old habits die hard and all that.

I'd love to discuss personal finances, but I think that's really beside the point.

I personally categorize Jaguar and .mac as unnecessary expenses, so I have a hard time justifying the money for it. I know, I'm repeating myself, just wanted to make sure that my point is clear. (And I'm not criticizing anyone who feels that this is a necessary upgrade or subscription)

[sbur]

Originally posted by mervTormel

i hear ya. but if you can't scratch $100 together, you've got some bigger problems. what would you do in the case of an emergency?

...snip...

i'm not saying you're of that ilk. but, if you think $250.00 is a lot of money, you've got some serious considerations to make.

at age 25, i think you're supposed to have a year's salary in a savings account somewhere. how? sacrafice.



Wow, merv. If that isn't a generalization, I don't know what is. Should an emergency come up, $250 shouldn't be a big deal, but I'd hardly call Jag an emergency. Your response left no room for prioritization. In many cases, the "sacrafice" would be not getting Jaguar.

You also assume that everyone joins the workforce at about 20. In case you didn't know, grad school is not a money making proposition. Especially when both you and your spouse are in school at the same time. I'm 31 and am still associated with a grad program (post-doc now...wife is pursuing a grad degree now too) so money is tight. I'm lucky enough to have special grant money to take care of most of my tech needs, but that runs out in august...with no renewal.

I know from this and other boards that I'm not alone in the struggling student thing. Personally, I'd rather spend my money on rent or health insurance than have to spend it on Jag. Or maybe just sink it into the car...there's always something that needs repair now, but I refuse to carry a balance on my credit card....

I know what you were trying to say, and generally I agree. But amortization doesn't work if you don't have the start up cash. So it ended up sounding really patronizing and elitist.

[mervTormel]

Wow, merv. If that isn't a generalization, I don't know what is. Should an emergency come up, $250 shouldn't be a big deal, but I'd hardly call Jag an emergency. Your response left no room for prioritization. In many cases, the "sacrafice" would be not getting Jaguar.
{sigh} you misinterpreted my 'emergency'. of course, this software upgrade business is a luxury. by emergency, i meant emergency. something that requires an immediate fiscal fix. medical, or vehicle dependency or something of that ilk that threatens your status quo. i don't know where you got software upgrade=emergency.

i just hear so much creeching about the cost of this [immense amount of work], and wonder how many crappy CDs they've bought in the past six months, or the like.

if you're not in the work force, then i'm subsidizing your support, so you have little wiggle room in your position and i have none in mine (i cannot negotiate my tax rate).

anyhow, after considerable thought and reflection on jaguar and what it consists of and provides, if it delivers, it is well worth the cost. the .mac services require a little more justification per user.

[AKcrab]

Just because you can't afford something, doesn't mean it's overpriced. Am I the only one that is not suprised that iTools is not free anymore? There is a reason that I didn't start using my @mac.com address as a 'permanent' address. I always thought that the service that I pay for would probably be there longer than the service that was free. Imagine that, I was right. Everyone seems pissed about losing their @mac.com email, where I'm only interested in all the other services. What ISP doesn't offer an email with your internet access?
I'll sign up for the first year, and see how it goes.

[nkuvu]

Originally posted by mervTormel

{sigh} you misinterpreted my 'emergency'. of course, this software upgrade business is a luxury. by emergency, i meant emergency. something that requires an immediate fiscal fix. medical, or vehicle dependency or something of that ilk that threatens your status quo. i don't know where you got software upgrade=emergency.
I think that software upgrade=emergency interpretation came from this quote:
i hear ya. but if you can't scratch $100 together, you've got some bigger problems. what would you do in the case of an emergency?
On another note,
i just hear so much creeching about the cost of this [immense amount of work], and wonder how many crappy CDs they've bought in the past six months, or the like.
That's not what you originally said. Or not how I originally interpreted your post, you pick.

I was referring solely to the breakdown to $15 per month, and I think that we all understand that this is an oversimplification. I can't afford Jaguar or .mac right now, because I spent money on other luxuries (I ordered DSL for example). I'm not complaining that I can't raise the money. I'm not griping about the cost for Jaguar. I'm saying that $15 per month isn't an accurate figure.

That's all. :)

AKcrab, I was just under the impression that even if things did go to a pay service, I'd be able to pay a small fee for email only. So I wouldn't have to send out the "Hey everyone, I changed my email again!" messages. Even just have an option to pay a trivial amount to have email forwarded would be a better scenario IMO. I'm not complaining about this, either. I'm just a little surprised. I would have figured that Apple would look at things from an end user perspective, and think that not everyone uses the full iTools, uh, tools.

[JayBee]

The .mac debate for me isn't actually about money, it's about choice. Apple is giving its customers no choice when it comes to the .mac service. Running it as a pick 'n' mix style, price-by-component, discounts-for-multiple-components scheme would make 98.3% (I counted ;) ) of those complaining happy.

One of the things about paying for a service is that it empowers you more than if you're receiving it for free. Apple seems to have missed this out of their strategy - If I'm paying for my email, I want to GET my email. Apple doesn't allow full control of its internal filtering system. That's acceptable for a free system. If .mac ain't free any more, I want to have this control back. I don't see why Apple can't let their much-vaunted spam filtering in Jaguar Mail do all the filtering on the client side. If they're going to make us pay for it, let's stop complaining and negotiate the deal to our advantage a little :)

Anyway, there's another 2p...

[clyde2575]

Here is my take on the .mac thing (if your interested): I did the big "switch" that Apple is now promoting about 1 year ago and I couldn't be happier BUT one of the selling points was iTools. I was excited about my @mac.com address, I was proud of my switch. The thought of having a web page that I could build with no knowledge about web language was super, I mean, I could show my friends out of town my pictures.

I cannot justify the cost of .mac. My ISP gives me 7 email addresses and web space, I have already bought Virex, a backup utility, and an external HD. Had they come up with this at the release of OSX...maybe I would have done it, at that point I had not spent the money for the above-mentioned things.

Maybe a tiered program where you can pick what you want and pay for that would work? I don't know, I just know that I love my mac and will never buy a PC but this is wrong, you don't use this as a selling point and then take it away.

[lamont]

Well done Clyde, that sums up my feelings as well.

[bassi]

Jaybee,

I agree completely, I mentioned it in a previous post and it seems no one picked it up at all. I want to get .Mac, however, this point, of having no control over filtering is holding me back.
They have Junk filtering in 10.2 Mail.app, can't they do this for our .mac addresses?
Yahoo has a bulk mail folder and Hotmail has a junk mail folder, I think both are deleted after 30 days. If Apple really want my $50 they have to implement these kinds of options.
I like the backup facility, it's seems much easier to use than Retrospect (tried it yesterday and couldn't get it to work well for CD burning, i imagine Apple's works better), and I hope they expand quickpicks for selective library files. I don't care much for Virex, but who knows, if Apple gets a larger market share ;), OSX will become a target. Now, if they get their act together for the email, I'll jump in.

message for Merv : Tried YDL 2.3, very nice for everything except, there's no reasonable alternative to Endnote and Kaleidagraph apps. Tried some programs and they sucked.
Word processing, web stuff, MP3 ID tag handling and Mac on Linux was very nice to use. My favourite is virtual desktops though. I just whipped out a quick message to OSX feedback about it. Real cool. Hope they'll implement it in 10.5. Maybe I would pay $129 for that.

:p

[sbur]

Originally posted by mervTormel

{sigh} you misinterpreted my 'emergency'. of course, this software upgrade business is a luxury. by emergency, i meant emergency. something that requires an immediate fiscal fix. medical, or vehicle dependency or something of that ilk that threatens your status quo. i don't know where you got software upgrade=emergency.

i just hear so much creeching about the cost of this [immense amount of work], and wonder how many crappy CDs they've bought in the past six months, or the like.

if you're not in the work force, then i'm subsidizing your support, so you have little wiggle room in your position and i have none in mine (i cannot negotiate my tax rate).

anyhow, after considerable thought and reflection on jaguar and what it consists of and provides, if it delivers, it is well worth the cost. the .mac services require a little more justification per user.

As I said, I understand what you were trying to say, and I generally agree with you. The the way it was expressed left room for improvement.

Sorry about the tax rate thing, but rest assured that the grant isn't "fun-and-games" money. OS X was improtant to me so I could run a lot of the molecular modeling programs available for unix. OS X.1 was essential for research. Jag is not. That will be out of my own pocket when it happens. So far, your tax money has generated three publications, and an easy way to make important analogues of anti-parkinson drugs like pergolide (the publication of which will probably be written in the next six months).

[petey]

i'm still unsure whether i'll do a year of .Mac for $50. but if i do, i think it'll be for the .Mac only features of iCal and iSync.

apple doesn't seem to have spelled out the details yet. but if the iCal alarm text alerts to cell phones is a good indicator of the type of stuff coming in september, the service might turn out to have some value after all.

if not, i'm looking for a service that will give me a POP email address that will remain constant as long as possible. i'm thinking Yahoo for $30/yr might be the ticket. of course, i could register a domain if i were willing to spend the hassle time.

[bassi]

Kind of off topic.

I just noticed something.
It's quite possible to vote more than twice.
My IP address isn't fixed (dhcp) at home so when I boot up and login etc. and go to this site, this thread, and I can vote again if I want without logging in.
You could skew the polls quite well. I wonder if anybody from apple is watching.

Just a thought.

:p

[sbur]

Dang. Now my evil plot to take over the world (based heavily on the manipulation of public perception) has been foiled.

May bad things happen to you and your dog for discovering my evil plot! :)

[vickishome]

I ran into this argument quite a few times when I refused to upgrade from OS 8.1. It wasn't about spending the money. It was about whether the money I would have spent would have met a need I had or given me a pleasure I desired in comparison to other things I could have spent the money on, including plain ol' saving/investing the money.

I didn't upgrade for about 5 years. I didn't miss a thing. I could have upgraded at any time I wanted. I just didn't want to bad enough to spend the money on it.

It wasn't that I didn't think the price was a good value for what I'd be getting. There's lots of stuff in the world that's a terrific value. I'm just not always interested or I'm not interested enough to pry the money from my hands to obtain the latest and greatest of everything.

When I got my first Mac, I ran on nothing but pirated software (freely given to me by another Mac enthusiast). I did that for a few months, then the first upgrades came in. I wasn't about to accept more pirated software so I bought legitimate copies of the software I really used.

Then the second upgrade came in. I bought it.

Then the third. I bought it too.

And the fourth. And the fifth. And sixth. And on and on and on.

I finally jumped off the upgrade wagon.

I had to ask myself one vital question. Did I really need/want the upgrade? Obviously, the more expensive the upgrade, the more I considered the question. When the answer was yes, I upgraded. But I found the answer was no quite often.

So I have finally upgraded from OS 8.1. I bought a new computer, tons of new software, tons of new hardware, and I'm loving every minute of it. And I'll probably get Jag at some point because it's captured my interest, and that makes it worth the money to me. Ask me again next year, and I may be more highly involved with something else and be more willing to pass on an upgrade.

What I'm saying is that each person must decide for themselves whether they are willing to pay the price for Jag. Willingness to buy it does not indicate, in and of itself, an agreement of whether the price is a good value for the upgrade. It just means that the person wants the money in their hot little hands more than the item in question - whatever the value.

And that's my 2¢ worth. :)

[Phil St. Romain]

Darned good sense, Vicki.

There's really nothing new other the sun with Apple releasing an annual, full-pay upgrade on their OS. They've been doing this for years. That's a point I've tried to stress to help keep a perspective on this. It seems a lot of people using OS X are new Mac users who aren't familiar with the history of Mac OS upgrades. Actually, Windows upgrade history is quite similar.

As you noted, one must ask whether the value gained is worth the money to you. Do you really need iCalendar, iChat, Quartz Extreme (if your graphics card can make use of it, that is), and some of the other slick features? If not, then do you WANT them enough to pay the fee? If not, then stay where you are and wait until you win the lottery and cash is no problem,;) or until you absolutely just have to have it or you won't get your work done properly.

Truth be told, I could probably be getting by just fine on my old Beige G3 set-up and OS 8.1. But I've enjoyed using the progressive upgrades through the years and with OS X have actually found that I'm more productive as well for a lot of reasons.

- An additional 0.03.

Phil

[mervTormel]

http://www.pee-mail.com/

[bassi]

http://ensemble.va.com.au/array/chap_00.html

;)

[thulsey]

Hmmm....:confused:

I paid US$10. to joker.com to register a domain. I have a static IP ADSL line. I have mac os X, which means I have WebDAV, Apache, Sendmail... I have installed imap and Squirrelmail for webmail....

I have cron jobs set up to backup my entire Users folder every night.

All that for 10$ and a DSL fee each month which I would pay even if I had .mac.

So the logic in this is.............:confused:

[maxelson]

Did it. Had to. My professional life is tied to my mac.com email address. And yeah, I use the other stuff as well. HOWEVER. I would use it more if frigging Apple would knock off this total lack of firewall support (Backup and iDisk util do not work for me and it is a bummer, to say the least).