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stephenpen543
12-05-2004, 04:04 PM
I have just recently changed from Windows - Mac, and on windows, I could open applications with the return key, but on mac you havve to press Option-O. Is there any why I can change it to the return key? I'm not very good at mac at the moment - so can you give step by step instructions. Thanks in advance

hayne
12-05-2004, 04:14 PM
on mac you have to press Option-O.
I think you meant Command-O

Is there any why I can change it to the return key?
No - the return key takes you into filename-editing mode as you no doubt have seen.

CAlvarez
12-05-2004, 11:50 PM
I didn't know CMD-O was a partial solution to this annoyance.

hayne
12-06-2004, 12:08 AM
I didn't know CMD-O was a partial solution to this annoyance.
Have a look on the right side of the "Open File" menu item and you will see the keyboard shortcut.

CAlvarez
12-06-2004, 12:52 AM
Yeah, it just never occurred to me to use the "Open" command on a program. It seems illogical that a rarely-used thing like rename gets the enter key, and something you do 100 times/day gets a two-handed key combo.

styrafome
12-06-2004, 01:03 AM
I agree, even though I am staunchly in favor of the Mac, I do prefer how Windows lets you use Backspace and Return in file windows.

However, the Mac gives you other keyboard shortcuts. Command-Up Arrow or Command-Down Arrow navigate the Finder windows. Cmd-Up goes up a level, and Cmd-Down opens whatever's selected.

So Cmd-Down is an alternative to Cmd-O. Cmd-Down is good to have when doing a lot of arrow key navigation in the Finder.

hayne
12-06-2004, 05:57 AM
It seems illogical that a rarely-used thing like rename gets the enter key, and something you do 100 times/day gets a two-handed key combo.
On the Mac, the keyboard shortcuts are supposed to be consistent across applications. It would be harder to make the Return key work as the universal "open" shortcut. For example, look at the File menu in Safari, or in MS Word, and you will see that Command-O is used for "open" there as well. You obviously wouldn't want Return to act as "open" in MS Word.

styrafome
12-06-2004, 10:51 AM
You obviously wouldn't want Return to act as "open" in MS Word.

Well, it's not a problem in Windows. The contexts are very different. Return on a document page means Return. In the Finder or Windows desktop, there are no document windows, so Return does something else.

There is already 20 years of precedent on the Mac for this kind of acceptable inconsistency. In the Finder, why can't I put line breaks in my long file name by pressing Return? Isn't that inconsistent with the function of Return? Or, you are typing a number into a number field in a dialog box. When you press Return, should it put a return character in the number field, or enter the number?

(That opens up another can of worms...how the Mac confuses the Enter and Return keys, while there is more of a clear distinction in Windows.)

bpardini
12-03-2007, 10:56 PM
Download ReturnOpen ...

http://www.returnopen.com

Hal Itosis
12-03-2007, 11:41 PM
Yeah, it just never occurred to me to use the "Open" command on a program. It seems illogical that a rarely-used thing like rename gets the enter key, and something you do 100 times/day gets a two-handed key combo.

One hand can easily type either ⌘-O or ⌘-down arrow. :)
There's no real winner here, based on "logical" points of view.

One could argue that single-key activation might also be an inconvenience...
since it would be much easier to *accidently* launch apps (and/or open docs)
by tapping just one key.

If Windows users want to spend time posting grievances about it, fine.

Doesn't matter all that much, really.

-HI-

Hal Itosis
12-03-2007, 11:55 PM
There is already 20 years of precedent on the Mac for this kind of acceptable inconsistency. In the Finder, why can't I put line breaks in my long file name by pressing Return?

Some "answers" to your question...

Returns (or specifically 'newlines') in filenames are not desirable.
Many UNIX utilities view a list of files as being a record... where
each filename appears on a *different* line. So if the choices are
either newlines in the filesystem or having powerful UNIX tools...

--

As we know from the very topic under discussion: on a Mac we
type return to start renaming a file... and we type return to end.
So -- if return either starts or ends the renaming process -- how
could it possibly also be used to put a return char in the name?

Inconsistent? Illogical? Imperfect? Unfair?

So is life. ;) [But it works.]

Hal Itosis
12-04-2007, 12:02 AM
Download ReturnOpen ...

http://www.returnopen.com

Not listed at VersionTracker?
Is it new... or just unpopular?

:D

Oh... here's one: PresButan (www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/25682)

Nice name! :rolleyes:

-HI-

bpardini
12-04-2007, 02:49 PM
One hand can easily type either ⌘-O or ⌘-down arrow.
There's no real winner here, based on "logical" points of view.

Who's logic? I've been working with both Macs and Windows for over 15 years and I find it much faster, more convenient and more intuitive to hit the return key to open files and folders as I navigate through a folder system using the keyboard. On the same token, hitting ⌘-O or ⌘-down with one hand is an awkward movement - to me at least - and requires my right hand to move from its natural position on the keyboard. So the winner is the user who wishes to have this ability.

One could argue that single-key activation might also be an inconvenience... since it would be much easier to *accidently* launch apps (and/or open docs) by tapping just one key.

I guess you have a point in that by having to hit a 2 key combination to complete a particular task it is almost completely unlikely that you did so by *accident*. However, I can't remember a single time, in my experience, that this has happened. Besides, big deal if it does happen *accidentally* - just go back or close the application.

Not listed at VersionTracker? Is it new... or just unpopular?

It's new, and posted at Apple.com, MacUpdate.com and various others. c|net takes their time because they charge to expedite the posting of any new submissions. It should be available there soon.

Apple link (http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/system_disk_utilities/returnopen.html)

If Windows users want to spend time posting grievances about it, fine. Doesn't matter all that much, really.

I didn't create the program to spark a Mac vs. Windows debate or publicly question what the default settings in Finder should be. As my family's and friend's personal IT department I have convinced many of them to switch to the Mac. I've seen the frustration that this one little difference causes first hand. It was also just a personal preference, and thankfully Apple gives us the ability to do it if we want. If you don't see a use for it, you don't have to download it, but if you do, it's here for you for free.

Oh... here's one: PresButan

Kudos to Brian Kendall for creating this app. I didn't even know this existed until I started posting ReturnOpen. I will say that his install is a little more involved, but the fact that it even exists should tell you that there is some use for and interest in such a configuration.

styrafome
12-04-2007, 03:05 PM
on a Mac we
type return to start renaming a file... and we type return to end.
So -- if return either starts or ends the renaming process -- how
could it possibly also be used to put a return char in the name?

That's more of the closed-minded Mac mindset than the open-minded one. The open-minded Mac mindset says:
a) In some apps, a distinction is made between Return and Enter, so that, for instance, in an app's text entry field, Return adds a new line while Enter applies the change or applies the OK button. Apple tends to confuse Return and Enter, the same way they tend to confuse Backspace and Delete, removing some choice and flexibility.
b) In some apps, especially some implementations of table creation, Return applies the text entered into the cell and moves on to the next cell, but you can add a new line by adding a modifier, such as pressing Option-Return.

Therefore, it is not hard to find a way, unless one takes the insular "not invented by Apple" mindset and doesn't study how various apps and OSs have already solved the problem.

(Your point about newlines not being a good idea in a Unix filename is well taken, though.)

Hal Itosis
12-04-2007, 03:23 PM
I will say that his install is a little more involved, but the fact that it even exists should tell you that there is some use for and interest in such a configuration.

And kudos to you sir. The 'switchers' will be pleased.

How then does one *rename* an item in Finder?

Command-I and mouse around the Get Info window?

iampete
12-04-2007, 03:46 PM
How then does one *rename* an item in Finder?

Command-I and mouse around the Get Info window?

Click twice (NOT double click !) in the filename.

J Christopher
12-04-2007, 03:51 PM
Click twice (NOT double click !) in the filename.

That's actually the process that sold me on the "press enter to rename" concept. :) I like it just the way it is, but I'm glad to hear that there are options available for those who would like different functionality from their enter key.

iampete
12-04-2007, 04:02 PM
That's actually the process that sold me on the "press enter to rename" concept. :) I like it just the way it is, but I'm glad to hear that there are options available for those who would like different functionality from their enter key.

What I find truly embarrassing (having been a Mac user for >20 years) is that I had never realized until this thread that one could rename a file using "enter". I have been frequently ticked off when my two clicks were just a tad too close together and were interpreted as a double click.

bpardini
12-04-2007, 04:47 PM
And kudos to you sir. The 'switchers' will be pleased.

How then does one *rename* an item in Finder?

Command-I and mouse around the Get Info window?

Click twice (NOT double click !) in the filename.




Thanks,

ReturnOpen only changes the functionality of the Return Key. The Enter Key on the number pad will still enable you to rename your files and folders. If you're on a PowerBook, iBook, MacBook or MBP or your keyboard does not have a number pad you can . . .

1. Hit ⌥ Return (option + return) - same as hitting the Enter Key on the number pad

2. Click - pause - Click on the name of a file

3. Select a file, hit ⌘I, rename

Brian
www.ReturnOpen.com

Las_Vegas
12-04-2007, 05:21 PM
Apple hasn't confused the difference between the Backspace and Delete other than calling the key by its synonym. The "delete" key is the same thing as Window's "Backspace" key. The fact that the two call them by different names is a carry over of the origin of their respective keyboards.

The Mac's keyboard evolved from the Apple II to the original Macintosh to the Mac Extended Keyboard and finally to modern layouts.

The Windows keyboard evolved from the VT100 Terminal keyboard that IBM first borrowed for the PC and hasn't changed much since. This is the primary reason the PCs have always had the virtually useless "Scroll Lock" key.

Now both platforms use very similar layouts and USB making the keyboards pretty much interchangeable. The PC's delete key is, and always was called "del" and has the exact same function on both platforms.

As to the Enter key being user intuitive for opening a file is only because you're used to it functioning that way; No user intuitively involved. I find it very "user intuitive" to press it to rename a file and would find it very frustrating if it instead opened my files.

styrafome
12-04-2007, 08:01 PM
Apple hasn't confused the difference between the Backspace and Delete other than calling the key by its synonym. The "delete" key is the same thing as Window's "Backspace" key. The fact that the two call them by different names is a carry over of the origin of their respective keyboards.

There are actually two places where it is unfortunate that Apple calls Backspace "Delete." One is the common shortcut of pressing Backspace as a shortcut to the Back button in a Web browser. For a backspace key, that at least makes some sense. For a delete key, it makes less sense, but Apple didn't want to keep Mac users from having that convenient shortcut.

Same thing when going up a directory on the desktop or in Open/Save dialogs. In Windows, hit Backspace, which is again somewhat sensible. Back as the opposite of Enter (which "enters" folders and files, in Windows). On the Mac, it would be scary to tell someone to hit the Delete key to go up a level, so we can't do that. Instead we have to hit Command and up arrow, and confuse the switchers again.

tlarkin
12-04-2007, 08:19 PM
I will say that they need to document the keyboard commands better and make them more customizable IMO for OS X.

A few I can't live with out are

in safari - cmd + shift + H = load home page, and I tab browse a lot and google in my home page which I use a lot so search things, so I can cmd + T for a tab then it will load google when I use the keyboard command for home page.

log out of OS X - shift + cmd + Q - I have to log out of network accounts and into local admin accounts all the time, this is a life saver.

I just wish there was a way, to cmd + tab to a minimized application window and have it launch back up from the doc, that would be nice.

J Christopher
12-04-2007, 08:24 PM
There are actually two places where it is unfortunate that Apple calls Backspace "Delete." One is the common shortcut of pressing Backspace as a shortcut to the Back button in a Web browser.

Same thing when going up a directory on the desktop or in Open/Save dialogs.

I agree on the first. Delete is not entirely logical, and not intuitive to use as a back button in a browser (although I would argue that it is more appropriately named on the Mac than on Windows). I rarely use that shortcut, since it requires moving to the keyboard, so it doesn't bother me. The only thing the shortcut has going for itself on my system is that it is near the top right of the keyboard, analogous with my browsers back button on the top right of the screen.

I disagree about the second point. Apple's use of command-arrow keys is a superior solution compared to return & backspace, IMO. It's more consistent, and easier to access from the trackpad without having to slow down to use the keyboard.